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Help Me Understand Conservatives
I am swing voter who has just concluded a five-day debate with a long-time friend. She is a conservative who believes that voting for a Democrat is akin to voting for abortion. Our debate began when she posted a graphic on her Facebook wall claiming that 200+ years of Presidents combined (including G. W. Bush) have accrued as much debt as President Obama in his first three years of office. I pointed out that her facts were wrong and, as a Christian, we should all investigate first so that we do not spread misinformation.
The discussion descended into madness from there. HELP! I recognize that this is a site supporting President Obama, but I truly need help understanding why and how "conservatives" have built up so much venom for a president that has obviously done some good for the country (we may disagree about healthcare reform, but he actually got something through Congress; we are out of Iraq, as he promised; his actions led to the successful elimination of bin Laden; the economy hasn't yet healed, but marathon reforms are required, not sprint reforms).
So...can someone out there please help me understand this?? The individual in question does sincerely believe that voting for a democrat is a vote for abortion. I always thought it was a vote for a woman's right to choose--God alone judges us all.
Thank you for any and all comments...please help me find some peace with this, if such a thing exists when considering the positions of ultra-right wing conservatives.
"...can someone out there please help me understand this??"
He's black.
You're welcome.
First of all, let me address Tom:
Democrats/liberals/Obama supporters need to hang up the angle that Republicans/conseravtives/Obama detractors dislike the President because of his skin color. That doesn't work with most people who know that is not true. It also makes the President look bad and weak.
Are there racists in America who are upset that a black man is president, of course. But the vast majority of Republicans are not in that category. Conservatives LOVE Herman Cain, Rep. Tim Scott, Rep. Allen West etc. All of who are "blacker" than the president. So just stop with that nonsense.
Second of all, let me address one fact in the original post. The truth is that by the end of Obama's first term, he will have accumulated more debt than all 43 previous presidents combined. As of today, Jan. 28, 2012 that is not a true statement, but unless things change it will be an accurate statement as of the end of the 2013 fiscal year.
As to RSStone74's original question, I dont' really know or understand why so many conservatives believe or want to believe bizarre wacked out crap about the president like he's a Muslim, he was born in Kenya, he's trying to turn us into a European Communist state, he's a puppet of George Soros etc. I don't understand how people who seem intelligent fall for that kind of idiocy.
I think the Obama worship (and that is exactly what is was) by the media and by many of his followers have hurt the President more than just about anything. It made those of us who did not like Obama in 2008 have a huge distaste for the man.
But on actual issues, much of the conservative dislike of the President is based on perception of what he believes and would like to accomplish and perception in politics is reality. But also the President will say something or take some action that will keep these perceptions alive. So while the President doesn't govern nearly as much as a Liberal as conservatives think, he will do something or say something in a speech that adds fire to that perception and keeps that perception alive among conservatives.
On character, President Obama would rank at the very top. He is certainly an honest man with great morals. I would give hm an A+ on the defense of the country which I see as the main job of the federal government. On foreign affairs in general, I would give him a solid grade although if Iran is able to go nuclear on his watch, than that would drop to a quick F.
On domestic affairs, President Obama obviously believes that the federal government should have a much bigger role in the affairs of the country than I and other conservatives would believe but he has been far more moderate in this area than I was expecting on January 20, 2009.
But sometimes Obama can still do something that is so insane that it makes me glad that he doesn't have the political skills of a FDR or LBJ. For example, not approving the Keystone pipeline is idiotic beyond belief. Another recent example, is requiring religious based health organizations to offer reproductive services that they disagree with on religious grounds. I won't even go into the lunacy of "Obamacare."
As a conservative, I hope we have a Republican president come next year but if Obama is reelected it will be fine with me. I greatly feared Obama in 2008 mainly because I thought he was more liberal than he turned out to be and even more scary was that he would have solid majorities in Congress. But Obama's political skills in office turned out to be fairly limited and all indicators show that the GOP will keep the House this year and we have a VERY good chance of capturing the Senate. A second term president with a majority of the other party in Congress can't do much damage even if he wanted to.
I hope my response helps answer your question.
He's still black. You're welcome, too, Brandon.
And all Democrats are immoral whoremongers. Not like that good, upstanding Newt Gingrich.
lunacy of "Obamacare"
LOL. You crack me up. As the one who administrates health insurance at my company, I have seen nothing but upsides to the Affordable Care Act for my employees. This is part of my job, day in and day out. No downsides so far.
For example...
Removal of lifetime maximums. -- Benefit.
Allowing the children of my employees who are still in grad school to remain on their parents' insurance. -- Benefit.
No waiting period in regard to preexisting conditions for children under 19. -- Benefit.
Covering preventive services like annual physicals, mammograms, and colonoscopies at 100%. -- Benefit.
Requiring that at least 85% of all premium dollars collected by insurance companies for large employer plans are spent on health care services and health care quality improvement. For plans sold to individuals and small employers, at least 80% of the premium must be spent on benefits and quality improvement. If insurance companies do not meet these goals because their administrative costs or profits are too high, they must provide rebates to consumers. (I went and copied that text because I knew that someone somewhere had already written this out better than I could explain it.) People will see the benefit of this one by August 2012, but at my company, we feel that we have already seen the benefit because we received a premium reduction that we think is in anticipation of this rule. -- Benefit.
Ending recission. -- Benefit.
If anything, you have actually reinforced RSStone74's original position. Just like you did mine.
Tom, not sure I understand your comment but again playing the card that conservative opposition to President Obama is because of race hurts the President.
Central TX Mom, all legislation has some good points and benefits some people. In the case of Obamacare, the negatives far outweigh the positives and it does not solve the problem of the costs of health care in the United States especially considering the boomers are aging into the demographic that uses medical services the most. I'm not going to get into a debate on the pros and cons of the Affordable Care Act as we've gone over them before and it is a subject that is too complicated to be effectively argued in a fourm such as this one.
I'm not sure what you mean by "actually reinforced RSStone74's original position." For a better written critique of why conservatives don't like Obama, I'd suggest you read David Frum's latest piece:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/content/newsweek/2012/01/22/david-frum-strikes-back-at-andrew-sullivan-on-barack-obama.html
"the negatives (of the Affordable Health Care Act) far outweigh the positives..."
Um, not only NO, but HELL NO! Many more people have access to health care than ever before in this country, without having to use hospital emergency rooms for non-emergency procedures. That, and eliminating "pre-existing conditions", to me are the positives that TRUMP all the negatives (and I agree there are several-- the biggest of which is not lowering the cost of health care). However, the negatives are strictly the fault of opposition, mainly (but not exclusively) from the GOP.
In other words, even though the law is flawed (thanks to opposition to enacting ANY reform in this area), it's better than no reform at all. One thing I know for sure--- I personally will NEVER vote for anyone (in any party) attempting to repeal it!
Um, not only NO, but HELL NO!
Amen, wcolin.
The notion that racism is not a motivation factor of this political process is complete utter DENIAL!!
Those who do not realize that HUGE amount of the opposition to this president is because of racism are incredibly naive or potentially not absolutely swimming in racists that the rest of us are.
Racism. "That doesn't work with most people who know that is not true. It also makes the President look bad and weak. " -- Brandon.
True, as a public debating point right-wing racism 'doesn't work' because it is such an unpleasant and awkward topic to discuss. That doesn't make it one iota less true or relevant.
Now, here comes the fun part... Discussing the right's racism "makes the Pesident... look weak."
You mean the President that took out Bin Laden... weak?
You mean the President that has taken out about 2/3 of the El Quaida top command... weak?
You mean the President that gave the command to free the hostages last week and took out the Somali pirates earlier in his term... weak?
The same people who believe a black President who did all this is an "appeaser" and "weak" proudly claim that George W (the W. stands for "White") was "strong" for taking out Sadam Hussein. This is racism. Period. Whether "it works" or not.
Then of course there is the bevvy of monkey protest signs and email "humor" periodically emanating from GOP local offices , Gingrich's factually inaccurate "food stamp" President schtick w/ a side dish of condescension to the NAACP, and two years of "birther" alien B.S. coming from the Right, including presumably credible, for a time, GOP candidates for President. (Oh, and why are establishment GOP's coming out of the woodwork this week screaming at Republican candidates for alienating Hispanics????) No racism here, either.
The RepubliKlan party would not acknowledge its own racism if David Duke won the nomination, in full bed sheet dress.
I can think of a few other good examples of racism...
-- The ad focusing on Harold Ford with the white woman who says, "Harold, call me." -- Republican National Committee did that one.
-- The anti-McCain whisper campaign about whether or not his youngest daughter might actually be his biological daughter.
-- Recent ad about Huntsman's youngest two daughters and their real parentage.
If there weren't enough racists for these ads and campaigns to work, then they wouldn't even be around. They are around because they work.
OOps!! I don't know how my sentences did not form paragraphs??? LOL I wrote several paragraphs but I don't know what happen?? it is one big block of words?? LOL hahahaha-- I promise I am not illiterate LOL haha
As I look at the evolution of this 2012 political process, I can see the Schizophrenia that is about to manifest!!--- The Republican Party is already trying to combat the Democrats from exposing their tactics of labeling helping the “Middle Class” as being divisive!! Any time a Republican candidate is exposed because of their unethical behavior, the republicans’ rebuttal is that the Democratic or liberal media is trying to destroy them!! The Republican candidates act as if their record is beyond reproach and if they are called out on it by the media, then somehow it is an act of “EVIL”. DUH???? We are in a political campaign?-- Every candidates’ record is fair ground for examination and questioning!! No candidate goes unscathed!! I am not advocating untruth but if Obama’s citizenship can be questioned, then why can’t people question Newt regarding his infidelity?? Newt’s delusional behavior regarding taking every questioning of his record as somehow a personal attack against him as a person shows his thin skin and he does not need to be in public life anymore; it is time for him to leave public life because he cannot separate constructive criticism of himself verses a personal attack.
The Republican establishment and base seems to function off of paranoid unfounded rumors like President Obama is a terrorist, Muslim, non-citizen, he hates America, Colonialism and he is vindictive!! LOL--- All of these comments are of the PARANOID KIND!! Lol ----The teapartiers, Ultra conservatives, GOPers and etc. seem to like to eat this type of obsessive fear for breakfast, lunch and dinner!! They are not satisfied unless some conspiracy is causing them to go into a frantic PANIC MODE!!--- These fantasies feed their preconceived thoughts and shield them from reality; it solidifies their erroneous conscious. There are some Republican bases who embrace these illogical realities because it supports their hate; others have been fed so much fear and propaganda until they are unable to separate reality from fiction!! Sadly, some Republican bases have been programmed due to listening to an overload of Rush and Hannity; therefore, their poor minds are very susceptible to fear tactics.
We can expect to see more Illogical, Paranoid, imaginary and race base comments coming from the republican candidates!! We progressives and moderates of the free world need to brace ourselves for the worse. We need to continue to examine the facts and outcomes of the accusations that are coming from the right. There is no room for taking them at face value. Also, I think as Obama supporters, we are going to have to spread the facts thru social media as the election process progresses because there will be all kinds of outlandish accusations projected against the President.
I believe we are going to have to build a large coalition because if President Obama is re-elected in November, the vitriol, viciousness and unconstitutional actions taken by the Republican establishment will be unprecedented!!! There are talks among the Republican establishment that if President Obama is re—elected, they have an impeachment plan in place!! ---We cannot take anything for granted; they have already demonstrated their obstructionist behavior at the cost of MILLIONs of Americans. Their greed for power outweighs their common sense!! The republican establishment somehow is under the impression that America belongs to them!! LOL--- As Americans, we want the restoration of the legislative bodies; we want to see the Congress, Senate and executive branch working in coherence but that is about to happen no time soon!!
The Ultra-Right has already started to frame and shape the issues by calling “fairness” divisive. They have already begun labeling the President as the food Stamp President rather than the job creator; they indicated that he is a divider because he brings up the subject of income inequality!! They want to Silence the president so he doesn’t expose the entrench evil of the political workings. They will call every good act an “Evil” thing. Remember the Republican media is skillful at perverting the truth. Their tactic is to keep the President in a defensive mode rather than an offensive mode!! Americans have always utilized food stamps in economic times.
What solutions did the right wing have when millions of Americans were unemployed?? I am sure they had their unrealistic proposals and jobs plans but what did they expect the American people to do while in transition to finding a job?? Let their kids starve?? They have made using food stamps an immoral act of some kind!! It was the American people who took advantage of the applying for aid while looking for employment!!! The reality is that finding a job is not an instantaneous process!! Next, Leveling the Plainfield by calling for the rich to pay the same portion of their taxes as the middle class is not unreasonable!! As we know the right wing is calling this action “ENVY”!!. When the right wing talks about eliminating the Entitlement Programs because this is BIG Government and an intrusion into the American people‘s lives!! ----This is hogwash! How about the disabled and frail elderly who will never be able to work for themselves again? How are they supposed to live?? Some people are lucky to have Children who can care for them but others were not so fortunate to have kids they could count on to care for them.
What about people who have a catastrophic accident like Gabby Gifford and are completely disabled?? I guess they should just die huh?? The right wing greedy establishment cares nothing about humanity; they care about POWER and prestige!! They call for the elimination of the entitlement programs because this is supposedly preventing people from exercising their freedom; it’s intrusive and too costly. I am sure they are going to label, if not already, President Obama as the welfare President!! I guess these labels are supposed to be a deterrent for the President?? The Republican establishment is calling every humanitarian effort, social justice act, enhancement of Science and Education as an evil act because “Government” is trying to Control Americans!! The fear, misinformation and perversion of the truth are relentless!! ---- Sorry I hope it's not too long LOL
@RSStone74 - Many of the "ultra-right wing" as you put it such as your friend have an authoritarian personality type. While you could look up Wikipedia for a description, I strongly suggest you read "Conservatives without Conscience" by John W. Dean of Watergate infamy. It is a very well written book describing the authoritarian mindset though he says very little on how to deal with such people. It is a very good read and you should be able to find a copy at your local library or in paperback form at your favorite bookstore. I hope this helps.
"Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug." -- Mark Knopfler