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How Catholics can support Obama and not McCain
I'm Catholic and have always had this "guilty" feeling supporting pro-choice candidates....now I found a pretty good argument.
http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2058
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'I'm Catholic, staunchly anti-abortion, and support Obama
Submitted by tfox on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 14:41.
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By NICHOLAS P. CAFARDI, Religion News Service
Published:
September 30, 2008
Editor's note: Nicholas P. Cafardi is the second high profile Catholic legal scholar who is staunchly anti-abortion yet says he supports Barack Obama. Douglas Kmiec, Ronald Reagan’s constitutional lawyer as head of the office of legal counsel for the Department of Justice, publicly argued a similar case for Obama several weeks ago.
Commentary
I believe that abortion is an unspeakable evil, yet I support Sen. Barack Obama, who is pro-choice. I do not support him because he is pro-choice, but in spite of it. Is that a proper moral choice for a committed Catholic?
As one of the inaugural members of the U.S. bishops' National Review Board on clergy sexual abuse, and as a canon lawyer, I answer with a resounding yes.
Despite what some Republicans would like Catholics to believe, the list of what the church calls "intrinsically evil acts" does not begin and end with abortion. In fact, there are many intrinsically evil acts, and a committed Catholic must consider all of them in deciding how to vote.
Last November, the U.S. bishops released "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," a 30-page document that provides several examples of intrinsically evil acts: abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, torture, racism, and targeting noncombatants in acts of war.
Obama's support for abortion rights has led some to the conclusion that no Catholic can vote for him. That's a mistake. While I have never swayed in my conviction that abortion is an unspeakable evil, I believe that we have lost the abortion battle -- permanently. A vote for Sen. John McCain does not guarantee the end of abortion in America. Not even close.
Let's suppose Roe v. Wade were overturned. What would happen? The matter would simply be kicked back to the states -- where it was before 1973. Overturning Roe would not abolish abortion. It would just mean that abortion would be legal in some states and illegal in others. The number of abortions would remain unchanged as long as people could travel.
McCain has promised to appoint "strict constructionist" judges who would presumably vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. But is that sufficient reason for a Catholic to vote Republican? To answer that question, let's look at the rest of the church's list of intrinsically evil acts.
Both McCain and Obama get failing marks on embryonic stem-cell research, which Catholic teaching opposes. The last time the issue was up for a vote in the Senate, both men voted to ease existing restrictions.
But what about an unjust war? In 2003, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) said flatly that "reasons sufficient for unleashing a war against Iraq did not exist." McCain voted for it; Obama opposed it.
What about torture? "There is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes," according to Antonio Taguba, the retired major general who investigated abuses in Iraq. Obama opposes the use of torture in all cases; McCain, himself a victim of torture, voted to allow the CIA to use so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques" -- a euphemism for torture.
How, some may ask, can I compare these evils with abortion? The right to abortion is guaranteed by the federal judiciary's interpretation of the Constitution. And while the president appoints federal judges, the connection between a president's appointments and the decisions rendered by his appointees is tenuous at best. After all, in 1992, five Republican-appointed justices voted to uphold Roe v. Wade in Planned Parenthood v. Casey. Yet on other intrinsic evils -- an unjust war, torture, ignoring the poor -- I can address those evils directly by changing the president.
There's another distinction that is often lost in the culture-war rhetoric on abortion: There is a difference between being pro-choice and being pro-abortion. Obama supports government action that would reduce the number of abortions, and has consistently said that "we should be doing everything we can to avoid unwanted pregnancies that might even lead somebody to consider having an abortion." He favors a "comprehensive approach where ... we are teaching the sacredness of sexuality to our children." And he wants to ensure that adoption is an option for women who might otherwise choose abortion.
Obama worked all of that into his party's platform this year. By contrast, Republicans actually removed abortion-reduction language from their platform.
What's more, as recent data show, abortion rates drop when the social safety net is strengthened. If Obama's economic program will do more to reduce poverty than McCain's, then is it wrong to conclude that an Obama presidency will also reduce abortions? Not at all.
Every faithful Catholic agrees that abortion is an unspeakable evil that must be minimized, if not eliminated. I can help to achieve that without endorsing Republicans' immoral baggage. Overturning Roe v. Wade is not the only way to end abortion, and a vote for Obama is not somehow un-Catholic.
The U.S. bishops have urged a "different kind of political engagement," one that is "shaped by the moral convictions of well-formed consciences."
I have informed my conscience. I have weighed the facts. I have used my prudential judgment. And I conclude that it is a proper moral choice for this Catholic to support Barack Obama's candidacy.
Cafardi is a civil and canon lawyer, and a professor and former dean at Duquesne University School of Law in Pittsburgh. His most recent book, Before Dallas, examines the bishops' failures in handling the clergy sex abuse crisis.
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Ditto for me too.
That is a very compelling argument if the data is supportable, and I suspect that it is.
Obama should be making this argument. Admittedly, it will be very difficult for the Brandon's of the world to follow, and they will accuse him of being "professorial" for speaking intelligently to the voters rather than the recent moronic GOP speaking in slogans, but it may soften much resistance among social conservatives.
I am Catholic and believe that between the hard-line positions on abortion lies a common sense approach.
I've yet to attend a funeral for a 1st trimester miscarriage. Yet the hysteria continues on the side of pro-lifers in the case of all abortions, not just late term. Why does that contradiction exist? Hmmm....
Also, global overpopulation is an issue that the church never dares to mention, yet it exist and indeed is at the root of many of our enviornmental problems.
I vote on the side of logic, not strictly on religious dogma laid down thousands of years ago and reinterpreted many times hence.
I've yet to attend a funeral for a 1st trimester miscarriage.
Well I should have sent you an invitation to the one we had. Not to sound crass, but many ppl who have "natural" miscarriages for have memorial services (i.e. funerals) for the lost of their babies.
Sorry, but this really grates me.
you guys say you are pro-life, yet you support the party that has let 4000 americans die for oil and halliburton.
The hypocrosy is stunning.
Warsame-
I am a pro-choice Republican. Three reasons:
1) Rape survivor!
2) Career!
3) Personal choice!
warsame-
Did you read the article? B/C that is exactly what the artilce hits on...........
I'm not pro-life but it doesn't make sense to me to vote for someone on an issue that doesn't directly affect me in my daily life. Sorry if this comes off as insensitive but stopping Susie Q. from getting an abortion is not going to help turn the economy around or help find a solution the the war.
I'm not one to tell people what issues I think should be important to them but I think its important to really ask yourself what affect does illegal or legal abortion have on your life if you are pro-life? In my personal opinion none whatsoever.
Being Pro-Life is like being pregnant either you are or you are not there is no middle. Making the above statement is a cop out!
I have made this argument over and over again. I have been one of those ppl who say that you can't ride the fence on this issue. However, you have some ppl here who still say that they are pro-life, but in certain circumstances they would agree with the abortion. Although I would surmise that they would indeed fit in the category of pro-choice, because it's still left to the mother...they would disagree. That's the best thing about being different! However, when I heard Palin state that NO MATTER what...she's against it...I realize that she is just a moron. I think it's easier to make a comment when you have never walked a mile in someone else's shoes.
I'm not Catholic so maybe I shouldn't respond, but...
I am anti-abortion. I usually prefer the term "pro-life" because people know what that means.
I am also pro-death-penalty.
I don't believe that very many people are "pro-war" but I am generally in favor of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan in that they were the right thing to do.
I agree with Oregon's "Death with dignity" law.
So I guess that the only real "pro-life" stance of mine is that of the unborn.
I will continue to use the term though.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, & wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
I am also Catholic and pro-life for myself completely; however, believe overall Women should make their own decisions about having a baby.
As I previously wrote on another post, I knew (2) friends at age 14 who had abortions and years later married & had their babies - God blessed them with a family and forgave their sins.
I do believe we need to be more understanding of women who are pro-choice.
However, I am absolutely against partial-birth abortion, that is where I draw the line - completely wicked.
As a compromise, if you cannot reach a decision to abort in 3 mths, then there should be NO abortion option after that - just my opinion.
A miscarriage usually occurs in the 1st 3 mths of pregnancy, this is a natural process and I guess that is why I say a Women should make an abortion decision within that timeframe.
I was raised Catholic went to Catholic school all my life until college....I was raised to be pro-life however, as I grew older my thoughts on this changed.
In Obama's case just b/c he is Pro-choice doesnt mean people have to live by his beliefs and for people to let this one topic stop them from supporting Obama confuses me. It is a touchy subject but I dont believe it should be the deciding factor in choosing a President b/c even if Obama was pro-life I dont think a law would pass making it illegal...IMO
With Obama's willingness to get to the root of the problem (poverty, education, etc.) I think his policies have a better shot at reducing unwanted pregnancies. I am pro-life but that is my bottom line. He will help in areas like:
-reducing poverty, helping teenagers to see a hope for their future (rather than having a baby just to feel loved)
-helping fathers to stay involved/take responsibility and decreasing single-parent homes which may increase values within the family
-helping young people to take more responsibility and make better choices so they don't need to consider the painful choice of abortion
-offering more adoption options
I know there are serious underlying problems in our society but they have been ignored too long and Obama can finally address them one small step at a time, rather than pretending they don't exist like the Bush Administration has done.
I don't usually like bumping posts for the sake of it, but a fellow Catholic emailed this to me today and thought it was worth highlighting again.
Amazing how people of all different stripes are rejecting the Republican Party's same old bag of tricks.
We have to face facts - the reason abortion was ever an issue, is because women were having them in back alleys by doctors who were pretty much butchers. It has always been a problem and always will be, whether or not the law is changed. My next argument is that if the Republicans REALLY wanted to change the law, they had control of Congress for SIX years and a President who certainly would have signed on the dotted line. So, why didn't they do it??? Too great a wedge issue, that's why. A lot of Catholics are starting to rethink their priorities. They have come to realize that by focusing on only one issue, they have allowed a corrupt administration to violate ALL of America. They have ignored hunger, child poverty, health care, education, and the list goes on. All of the things that could place women in better positions to make better choices. To my Catholic brethren, I say: awake and remember your roots - remember your faith - remember that we are here to serve our fellow man - remember that we are to spread the word that all life is sacred; not just the unborn; but the wicked, the sick, the homeless, the sinner. Service to others and love for my fellow humans - that is what I was taught. I believe Obama lives that creed.
You are exactly right, Dixie. The Republican party leaders have no intention to do anything about abortion, because it is an issue they can use to demonize the other side and hold Christians hostage. If there was no abortion issue, then they could no longer hold that issue over their heads in order to control the voting bloc.
______________________
RFO Outreach Coordinator
The enemy of "the best" is not "the worst." The enemy of "the best" is "good enough."
Oh Dear. Mr. Cafardi has misconstued the Postion of the Catholic Church on the Abortion issue. The Church does view that of the current issues we are dealing with abortion is clearly the greatest moral evil. If you area a faithful pro-life catholic and truly follow the church Voting for Obama is a serious mistake.
It is simply a vote to keep the Supreme Court From moving away from the secularist ideas espoused by many in the Democratic Party including Barrak Obama. I understand the idea that helping the poor etc. will reduce abortions, but the details of 'helping the poor" are subjective and quite arguable on either side.
The Supreme Court as always is the hidden key issue as it is really the only issue that clearly divides the candidates. So many of the other issues our polititions change there positions on, vote differently than they claim they will, and simiply end up going with the flow of a government running out of control. Barrak Obama will continue this, and will clearly put anti-life judges in the courts.
The One thing that has increased Abortion in this nation and the world was legalizing it. Attempting to legally restrict it is the biggest step we can take(political step that is) to stemming the greatest evil of our age.
The Democratic Party has done absollutly nothing to stem the scourge of abortion in this nation, except promote a contraceptive mentality which is also clearly against the teaching of the catholic church. Abortion is the greatest evil in our nation of this age.
With all due respect, neither party has done anything to "stem the scourge of abortion." All the Republicans have done is talk about it. I can talk about becoming a doctor. It doesn't make me one until I take action and go to medical school.
______________________
RFO Outreach Coordinator
The enemy of "the best" is not "the worst." The enemy of "the best" is "good enough."
<The Democratic Party has done absollutly nothing to stem the scourge of abortion>
I agree benjamin s....but they are at least honest enough to admit that their party platform is pro-choice.
My Republican party has done absolutely nothing either, except to trot out abortion as a hot button issue in every election. When we had control of both the White House and Congress, no bills were proposed, nor were any trial balloons sent out to test the possibilities of change. I finally had to admit that abortion is a tool being used to guarantee our vote, and I for one can no longer be bought this way.
As for the Catholic Church, the bottom line is this. As long as a Catholic votes for a pro-choice candidate for other reasons, it is acceptable. It goes against the Church to vote for a candidate because he/she is pro choice.
Obama sees other ways to reduced the demand for abortions, which will greatly lessen their numbers. ie education and health care.
The One thing that has increased Abortion in this nation and the world was legalizing it. Attempting to legally restrict it is the biggest step we can take(political step that is) to stemming the greatest evil of our age.
I hope you don't really believe that by legalizing abortions helped increase the numbers. Abortions have been at an all time low since it has been leagalized. However, the difference is we are able to count the number of abortions that are done at clinics whereas they didn't do so back in the 1920's.
Re: your statement about the "contraceptive mentality"
Oh, grow up. Apparently you were as pure as the driven snow when you got married, but the vast majority of people I personally know were not. And you can pretend that is something new, but it is not. People have been having sex out of wedlock since time immemorial. And women have been getting pregnant out of wedlock since time immemorial as well.
I think it is disingenuous to call the groups pro-life or pro-choice. It implies that people who are pro-choice are anti-life. No one wants there to be abortions, so the way to curb them is through education and contraception.
Perhaps a little off subject but I find it interesting how concerned the religious right are about protecting life when they supported this unnecessary war that is responsible for what is happening to Christians in Iraq.
Official: 3,000 Christians flee Iraq's Mosul
By BRADLEY S. KLAPPER, Associated Press Writer 43 minutes ago
BAGHDAD - Hundreds of terrified Christian families have fled Mosul to escape extremist attacks that have increased despite months of U.S. and Iraqi military operations to secure the northern Iraqi city, political and religious officials said Saturday.
"The Christians were subjected to abduction attempts and paid ransom, but now they are subjected to a killing campaign," Kashmoula said, adding he believed "al-Qaida" elements were to blame and called for a renewed drive to root them out.
Political and religious leaders interviewed said the change in tactics may reflect a desire on the part of extremists to forcibly evict all Christians from Iraq's third largest city.
Earlier this week, Chaldean Archbishop Louis Sako said he was worried about what he termed a "campaign of killings and deportations against the Christian citizens in Mosul."
Mosul police have reported finding the bullet-riddled bodies of seven Christians in separate attacks so far this month, the latest a day laborer found on Wednesday. On Saturday, militants blew up three abandoned Christian homes in eastern Mosul, police said.
I understand the idea that helping the poor etc. will reduce abortions, but the details of 'helping the poor" are subjective and quite arguable on either side.
I guess you are saying then that the best thing is to do nothing, because we cannot agree. I agree with Suthngal - abortions couldn't be counted before, because it was a deep, dark secret. Doesn't mean it didn't take place on a regular basis. You are buying an argument that can be neither proved nor disproved. Again, just the way the Neocons like it!
The Democratic Party has done absollutly nothing to stem the scourge of abortion in this nation, except promote a contraceptive mentality which is also clearly against the teaching of the catholic church.
And there you go - probably the BIGGEST reason that we are in the position we are in. Remember, Palin is for abstinence only and I am sure she has taught her children only that. We see how well that turned out, now don't we? It's ludicrous, ridiculous, and downright stupid. We are all human, and thus probably will commit sin at some point in our lives. More often for some of us <VBG>. To believe that people will be able to always rein in their desires is living in an alternate reality. If you DO believe they can, then I have some property to sell you in the land of Oz. Until we allow our children to be educated fully regarding sex, we will never overcome the problem of teen pregnancy. They are curious, they will try it, and I would much rather they use every precaution to prevent an unwanted pregnancy than to not know what the hell they are doing and get pregnant. And yes, I had a teenager here at home and I did have to deal with this issue. I chose enlightenment and education as opposed to maybe becoming a gramma before I was ready. ;-P Seriously, though, birth control prevents pregnancy, and isn't that a whole lot better than ending it at 3, 4, or 5 months?
Help Advance Democracy in the USAObama is our only hope for change in this campaign. The youth are sick and tired of racism, sexism, and WARS but no good jobs, ridiculously high college, and unaffordable health care. Most youth have come out to affect fundamental change, thanks to Mr. Obama, who has made them feel apart of America’s future. Join the campaign lead by Mr. Obama but that should go beyond him and the Democratic Party. The youth will NOT come out in force for the McCain who has been in government for decades. Yet, the most that he is noted for is his criminal involvement in the (KEATING) saving and loan bank public rip-off. He has tried to cover this awful fraud with his prisoner of war story but thanks to Palin, the story in now back in the media for Americans to view! We Americans, who work for our dollars, should not allow old fashion ignorant biases about people’s looks and personal believes drive our future back into despair. Do not let gossiping mongering media (FOX) distract you from why we you are voting for CHANGE with Obama. Three decades of McCain and too many senators on both sides have done little for working and retired Americans.Dr. Sapphiresapphiremdmph@aol.com/ 646 345 6324Interesting NCR article that is appropriate for this discussion:
Bishops who make a case for one-issue politics or openly oppose a political candidate are in violation of the guidelines set out repeatedly in their own documents on political responsibility, said noted theologian Fr. Richard McBrien in a recent talk here.
McBrien of Notre Dame University, author of a number of major works on Catholicism, including the recently published The Church: The Evolution of Catholicism, was speaking to an overflow, mostly Catholic audience of several hundred at a Unitarian Church in Kansas City, Mo. His talk was hosted by a group of lay Catholics who run a speaking forum called “Topics to Go.”
In his talk, McBrien listed five Catholic principles, taken from Catholic teachings, that he said can be applied to the current political process.
1. Although bishops and other Catholic officials have the constitutional right to participate in public policy debates and in the political process generally, they impose certain limits upon themselves as a matter of prudence.
2. Catholic voters and their bishops should examine the positions of the candidates on the full range of issues as well as their integrity, philosophy and performance.
3. Catholic voters and their bishops must not forget the distinction between moral principles and their application in the political order. It is possible to agree on an important moral principle and yet disagree, in good conscience, on the way that principle is applied in the political order.
4. Because there is a distinction between the moral law and the civil law, Catholics and others–-Christians and non-Christians alike--cannot expect that every element of the moral law, as they understand it, can or should be translated into civil law.
5. Given the principle of sacramentality, in the final analysis the most effective way for the church and its members–-or for anyone–-to influence public policy is by force of their own example.
For more see: http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2089
I am glad I at least stirred up some comments.
First Contraception. I understand the vast majority of you disagree with me, and I appreciate the respectful dialouge on the issue(although TX mom telling me to grow up doesn't acomplish a whole lot and reiterates the arrogance of much of the debate going on). My point on contraception is that it is clearly against Catholic Church teaching and so if you want to discuss how a Faithful Catholic (one who believes in the teachings of the church) should vote, proposing contraception as a solution to abortion does not work. If you are Catholic I encourage you to read Humanae Vitae
The point of the mentality is this. Of course it is better to use contraception than to Abort. But the best solution is promote the idea that having a child is a natural outcome of sexuality. I believe it is better to have the child as a 16 year old and give it up for adoption than to run around using contraception as a means to sleep with whomever you want whenever you want. We forget the emotional/spiritual damage that promiscuity causes and decide the ulitimate "problem" is unwanted pregnancy. The ultimate problem is the social elimination of a moral standard. Of course we are all weak and will fall/sin whatever. But we cannot let the moral/legal standards of our culture fall to the lowest commen denomenator. That will ultimatley lead to caos. Which is where I believe the Obama presidency will eventually take us.
Addmittedly the Republican party has not done much to stem the tide of abortion but, they have done much to slow down it's progress and if more judges like Alito and Roberts are appointed, Roe (which is a simply a bad decision) will probably fall.
I guess it is not provable by fact that legalizing abortion caused an increase in the number of abortions, but I stand by my assertion that it has. There have been something like 50 million abortions since Roe. Are you going to tell me 50 million women had abortions illegally from the mid 1930's until 1972? That is somewhat preposterous. The underground money changing hands would be enough to have created a far larger problem than it did.
Bottom line if you believe that abortion is a right and not immoral, than by all means vote for Obama.
However if you believe that Abortion is the taking of an innocent human life, then you belive as I do. It is a horibble act. The taking of innocent human life is considered murder and there is no higher priority for the law than to protect it's citizens from being murdered. Thus Overturning Roe is our highest priority. It has a chance with McCain (a pretty decent chance). It has none with Obama and he will increase abortions in our nation and around the world quickly after taking office.
"It has none with Obama and he will increase abortions in our nation and around the world quickly after taking office"
That remark was low and despicable. The only people actively increasing abortions in this world are rapists, and that includes some of the Vatican's own.
"I believe it is better to have the child as a 16 year old and give it up for adoption than to run around using contraception as a means to sleep with whomever you want whenever you want. We forget the emotional/spiritual damage that promiscuity causes and decide the ulitimate "problem" is unwanted pregnancy."
That's easy for you to believe. You've never been a 16 year old girl. Furthermore, your medieval anti-contraception views are incredibly irresponisble, and extremely dangerous, in the age of AIDS.
Your blind, extremist attitude excludes from consideration the children that die of AIDS, not to mention those that die and have died as a result of illegal abortions.
The taking of innocent human life is considered murder and there is no higher priority for the law than to protect it's citizens from being murdered. Thus Overturning Roe is our highest priority. It has a chance with McCain (a pretty decent chance).
I hope you have other reasons to vote for a warmonger. He is about anything but saving lives.
The American people are slow to wrath, but once that wrath is kindled, it burns like a consuming flame. - Theodore Roosevelt
Alina, you are my hero. Truth to power, sister!
You can paint Jesus on a troll, but in the end, it's still a troll.
The American people are slow to wrath, but once that wrath is kindled, it burns like a consuming flame. - Theodore Roosevelt
How anyone can believe that it is better for a 16 year old to go through pregnancy, childbirth and giving that child up than to use contraception defies all logical thinking. I started to point out all of the flaws in your arguement, but decided to save my energy. I know your mind is closed to the subject, and I accept that. But may I point out that the vast majority of Catholics today practice some form of birth control, as a matter of conscience. I accept that too.
I agree totally that abortion should never be used as a form of birth control. I am and always will be pro life. But to put women's choice to use other forms of contraception in the same conversation is archaic at best, judgemental at worst.
There have been something like 50 million abortions since Roe. Are you going to tell me 50 million women had abortions illegally from the mid 1930's until 1972? That is somewhat preposterous. The underground money changing hands would be enough to have created a far larger problem than it did.
Do you know how many women died from botched abortions because they were performed in back rooms by untrained people?
However if you believe that Abortion is the taking of an innocent human life, then you belive as I do
Is it any different than sending our young to their death in an unjust and unnecessary war? Your man McCain supported this needless war and added to that horrific wrong his surge that took even more American lives.
Perhaps we should also mention that the lives of more than a million Iraqis were "taken by this madness. Don't talk to me about McCain's concernes about taking lives.
Add this to your website
The number is shocking and sobering
The estimate that over a million Iraqis have died received independent confirmation from a prestigious British polling agency in September 2007. Opinion Research Business estimated that 1.2 million Iraqis have been killed violently since the US invasion.
This devastating human toll demands greater recognition. It eclipses the Rwandan genocide and our leaders are directly responsible. Little wonder they do not publicly cite it. Here is simple HTML code to post the counter to your website and help spread the word.
*
The taking of innocent human life is considered murder and there is no higher priority for the law than to protect it's citizens from being murdered.
We have laws regarding murder. The fetus, however, is not a citizen until AFTER birth. Are you now saying we should award citizenship to the unborn?
All of what you have stated is the job of the church, not government. If we decide to write laws based on one religion, then we become a theocracy, something that the right-wing fundamentalists have been pushing for quite some time. Want to see how a theocracy works? Move to Saudi Arabia. Be in the minority for a bit and see how you like the laws written based on their religion.
If the US is such a pagan society, then I guess the churches haven't done a very good job at getting their messages across. So, now they look to the government to do it for them.
Final point: you will never legislate away abortion. That is something that is decided in a person's heart. It is up to the church to secure the minds and hearts of the citizens to do what is morally right, regardless of civil law.
My, my, my! Single issue voters again. For this catholic, that is among the dumbest things a person can do. This kind of thinking is exactly what we all should be trying to get away from. And I'm not talking about changing views on abortion. I am talking about making abortion the single issue that trumps all else. Stupid!
<I am glad I at least stirred up some comments>
benjamin seems to think he did something unique. If only he knew how many, many times we have had this same conversation. It is what it is, and no amount of election time posturing will ever change it. So we accept it and move on.
Alina I firmly believe what I said about Obama. He will promote Abortion. You believe otherwise. That is fine. We can't know for sure. I hope our dialogue can be civil however. Nothing is acomplished through name calling. In the end we really are in this together. If our country continues to move toward a place where there are two cultures that hate each other we really are in trouble. I see this as one of the crucial issues that is responible for the culture wars which are real. A civil tone can only help things no matter what our opinions.
I have come to my views from what I believe to be an intellectially honest postion. I believe in Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church. Cleary the Church itself is far from perfect as it is full of human beings, but it's job is not to be perfect but to preserve that perfect standard given to us by Christ.
That is all theology. Politically, I have to believe things that fit with my world view which is that of the Catholic Church. I believe life begins at conception and thus, yes I do believe the unborn are citizens. They don't have birth certificates but that is merely paperwork. For me to ignore the fact that my opions are often formed by my faith and then discount them in the civil arena would be intellectually dishonest. Our Laws are based on the judeo christian ethic. Less so all the time and Barrak Obama would make it even less so, but that is how it began.
I am not proposing a theocrocy. Hopefully there is some standard in truth and justice that can be agreed upon. People of all faiths must put there 2 cents in. That is all I am doing.
I don't have much respect for Mr. Obama. I don't have much respect for any politicians. I think if we put our faith in them we are quickly doomed. That is one thing that really scares me about this current election. People really believe Barrak Obama can radically change the world. Than is a dangerous trust to put in a politician.
I don't look at only one issue. Personally I have a problem with many of Mr. Obama's positions. But this forum was about Abortion. I do think it is the biggest issue as it reflects our values as a society. The Catholic Churches postion on voting is that the defense of innocent human life is fundamental and is the first thing to consider.
Sheesh. No one PROMOTES abortion. No one likes abortion. Even those of us who are pro-choice wish that there would never be another abortion again. Like it or not, the way to do that is through education and contraception.
I can't wrap my mind around your assertion that Obama would PROMOTE abortion. Yes, he will not declare that he wants it to be illegal, but since he is committed to education, I believe that he will lessen abortions through that strategy.
I also note your passive-aggressive tone in each of your messages scolding everyone else it to keep the discussion civil while in the next breath disparaging other people's opinions and telling them that they are intellectually dishonest.
Don't waste time explaining things to Benjamin who keeps repeating the lie that Obama is pro-abortion. No one is pro-abortion, it's a traumatic procedure to have done. Methinks Benjamin just enjoys feeling "above" everyone else by "taking a stand" against something.
Pro-choice is pro-freedom--the freedom for a woman to decide what happens to her own body including having a physically and emotionally traumatic abortion if necessary.
As many posts have already pointed out, the best way to reduce abortion is to increase the support systems for the mother, something Obama has pledged to do. (McCain, this concept is not on the radar)
Benjamin you are clearly only Pro-fetus. Pro-life just sounds better. Anything after the birth is unimportant. The life of the mother, the life of the child once it is born are not of your concern. If you truly care about life, think also about the lives of children that are abused and neglected. If you care so much about life, why not focus your energy on getting churches to stop shielding child molesters? That would be a more worthy and admirable cause. If less people are traumatized as children, perhaps we'd have less damaged adults. Think of all the lives you'd save then!
You won't convince any people on this site with your ungrounded arguments. RFO members actually use their brains and consider many sides of an issue in addition to tackling several issues. You might be more happy posting on a PUMA scrapbooking site.
benjamin, forgive us, but we have discussed this subject so many times with so many different people. I would suggest that you do some reading throughtout the site to find out more about our various positions.
I subscribe to Matthew25, and received this link today. If you read this, possibly you can come to an understanding of my/our position. I don't expect you to agree, but would hope that you would be willing to accept and understand that most of us did not come to this decision easily, but that after a lot of soul searching and research, we are not likely to change our positions.
Suzi, you might want to cross-check this ip with Brandon's ip block. Just a hunch.
The American people are slow to wrath, but once that wrath is kindled, it burns like a consuming flame. - Theodore Roosevelt