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**Happening Now** HOUSE FAILS TO PASS BAIL OUT


I knew this would happen. To many people are questioning why we should have to bail them out, and are questioning the US priorities. 700 Billion dollars could go towards education, health care, veterans...and I could go on and on..Im guessing the people in the house that voted against this Bailout were thinking the same thing....IMO
I don't know enough details to have a strong opinion, but most people seem to think that if we don't do this we won't have healthcare, education, veterans, etc to invest into.  You could argue that you could spend a few thousand dollars to refurnish your house, remodel the kitchen, etc, but what's the point if the roof is leaking?
Hi Peter I see what you are saying, never looked at it like that.

 

So, true -

"what's the point if the roof is leaking?"

I mentioned this before on another post, heard a caller say there are 300 mil people in the US.  Why not give each person $1mil and let us boost the economy... he was being facetious.

 What do you do at this point - out of control 

 

Yeah, I've seen a lot of posts like that. More proof that focusing on math in schools is a good idea :)

SAW YOURS AFTER I POSTED 

PLEASE DIGG IT SO MORE SEE!

http://digg.com/business_finance/House_defeats_700B_bailout_vote 

Will do!

This bailout is essential to the health of the economy. Yes, we could punish the 'fat cats' by not giving them the money, but then we are also hurting ourselves. Why? Where do you think your pension plans at work have all their money? How many of you own stock now that you see plummeting? How many people were sold a bill of goods when applying for a mortgage and are now facing foreclosure? I can tell you this, having been a Realtor, it is much better to renegotiate the loans to monthly payments the homeowner can afford than to have all those homes being owned by banks who now have no buyers to take them off their hands because they have no money to give the buyers loans.  It is a mess, and we can all bemoan the fact that these guys were making themselves rich while no one was watching the store (and McCain was one of the architects of this deregulation), or we can move forward and try to stop our economy from collapsing. I never thought there would be a chance for another depression. Recession, yes, but not a depression. I have been rethinking that one! All of these people given money they could never pay back?? This is scary, folks. It's too bad it's a political year, because I think those who voted against it are up for reelection and know their constituents are angry. This is the one time they should be putting 'country first' instead of getting elected. That's okay - maybe if people are standing in the unemployment line because their employer couldn't make payroll, they will make their congressperson join them in that line. I pray that they come to their senses and realize the gravity of the situation. If they don't, we will go into a tailspin the likes of which we have not seen in decades!

:::jumping up to applaud this post:::  EXCELLENT post Dixie!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Admittedly, I am not an expert on economics by any stretch of the imagination.  Really.

But, call me naive or whatever you want... but some of this boils down to common sense.  If this mess is left to continue down the road its currently on, we are all going to be up a creek without a paddle.  Do I WANT to fund this bailout with taxes??? Hell no! But sometimes we have to take one for the team. 

Again... I might be way off base here.

In the meanwhile, please pray for our country and for our leaders.  Please let them lay politics and their own careers aside. 

If the representatives are the voice of their constituents - then is it not their duty to vote as they wish?
Not when their constituents are voicing emotion and not facts.  The average American is woefully ignorant on how our financial system works. 

A lot of people have been rubbed the wrong way with this bill. I've read quite a few angry comments that the bill failed and also celebratory comments that it didn't pass. I'm guessing those who voted against it were hearing the voices of those who opposed the bill from their home state. The question is who have they been listening to? Were they listening to the vocal minority who has the time and money to lobby their opinion, or were they listening to the silent majority?

Where are all the non-political smart people who can shed some light on this situation? Are there any left? 

It's either pay now or pay later.  There has been much written abou that.  This is a correction that has been put off for quite sometime and many thought that even the bailout would do nothing to stop it except pin the price tag on the tax payer.

The bailout doesn't address what is fundamentally wrong with the system and that is not deregulation.

So what's fundamentally wrong with the system?

You mean other than greed and self preservation???

I agree with you on that one Jill!  =) (the first sentence anyway =)

I see the problem as government engineering.  Fannie Mae/Freddie should not have been a gov't owned enterprise.

The GSEs were bastardized in their current form of what is bad about gov't and free market (loose oversight and greed).  Accounting scandals that netted F. Raines 90million in 6 years are still unresolved and not even investigated?

Aside from that the market will always find a way to get around gov't regulation (ie CDSs and derivatives as a response to redlining).  Why would banks take all the risk?  They are for profit.

I know that is an oversimplification but I don't have a ton of time to get into as I think we have hashed it out on other forum topics before.

I will say I disagree with you, Jill.   Fannie and Freddie were definitely part of the problem, but the use of derivatives, high leveraging, and mis-pricing of risk were pivotal in this crisis.  These problems, on top of the inevitable leveraging that mortgages already entail, are more at fault for the collapse, I would argue.  And Fannie and Freddie's executives were only making use of instruments and cultural "norms" that existed in other forms in the financial industry.  Keeping interest rates low by the Fed Reserve was another main contributor.   We are not the only country to have had a major real estate blowup.  Look at Sweden and Japan. 

I have stated the same in other posts.  Just didn't want to rehash it here.

Gov't intervention + lack of oversight + easy credit + houble + monetary policy+greed = crisis.

Why is that Enron's execs were sent to jail and Fannie/Freddie's not even investigated?

The worst thing about it is that McCain has already championed the "vote it down" cause. So this will be a win in his column. : (
This is what terrifies me the most, and has me really depressed right now.  If McCain spins this as him having spoken up for the majority of Americans who didn't want this bill - nevermind that the majority of Americans do not understand economics - this could be the day the election swings in his favor.  I am literally nauseous as I type this.

Try to stay calm Kat... Obama is tough and he will weather this storm.  If McCain was brought to Washington to bring the House Repubs on board, it seems to me that he didn't do a very good job.

I just saw on CNN one of the commentators said that McCain was trying to look like the savior and said that he was going to lead his party to passing the bill and he didnt accomplish anything. It wasnt in those exact words.

McCain was trying to look like the savior and said that he was going to lead his party to passing the bill and he didnt accomplish anything.

True 

D's supported 60% to 40% and R's opposed 67% to 33%.

How they voted

Obama/Biden 2008

McCain was not sent he was requested; and not necesarrily to pass this bill if it was not the right one.

Seems that Pelosi torpedoed the bipartisan effort:

"Several Republican aides said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., had torpedoed any spirit of bipartisanship that surrounded the bill with her scathing speech near the close of the debate that blamed Bush's policies for the economic turmoil.

"

"Rep. Roy Blunt, R-Mo., the whip, estimated that Pelosi's speech changed the minds of a dozen Republicans who might otherwise have supported the plan.

Without mentioning her by name, Rep. Adam Putnam, R-Fla., No. 3 Republican, said: "The partisan tone at the end of the debate today I think did impact the votes on our side."

"

"We could have gotten there today had it not been for the partisan speech that the speaker gave on the floor of the House," House Minority Leader John Boehner said. Pelosi's words, the Ohio Republican said, "poisoned our conference, caused a number of members that we thought we could get, to go south."

LINK

The cynic in me wonders if she would do this to sink McCain.  However, I am not sure what there is to be gained by this speech by Pelosi.  She systematically neglected any complicity by her own party.

I have never been a fan of Pelosi-ever,  including today.  Even if she feels that way, she shouldn't have said that today on the floor of the House.  I'm going to quote my grandmother here.  She always said, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar." However,   I don't think though that the "Nay" voters should have let her statement change their vote if they truly were going to vote for the bill  in the first place.  {shrug} I wonder what is going to happen next...
Isn't it just as partisan to change your vote because of comments from the other party?  These were votes the bill had beforehand.  They changed their minds based on nothing in the bill, but because they don't like Nancy.  What idiots!
I doubt they were in line to begin with and this diatribe killed whatever chance their was to bring them over.

Rep. John Boehner (Republican) flat out said at the press conference that her remarks changed their minds.  It was then repeated by the next three House Republicans who spoke, whose names I did not catch.

Boehner was in charge of getting those votes.  Of course he said that.  I agree with Jill here.  They may have thought they did, but they didn't have those votes.

Then they lied to Boehner.  Either way stinks.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26945513#26945513

If that's true they don't belong in Congress or any enterprise for that matter, Democrat or Republican. You cannot put your personal emotions ahead of millions of people and billions of dollars. You just can't! 

Pelosi had lacked tact to say the least, but short of some new development regarding the bill nothing she said should have changed their mind about the vote!

This is nothing but a way to justify voting against the bill. I don't know what the real reason is, justified or not, but "because Pelosi hurt their feelings" is not. 

I can uderstand why, on a personal level, these Representatives could have been offended by what she said.  However, does that make it ok to sabotage the vote over personal hurt feelings and/or anger?

"He said this so I'm gonna do this...."

"Well then, since She said that I gonna do this..."

Blah blah blah... both parties are guilty of it.

When it comes to BOTH the Republicans and the Democrats... I have a 3 year old that plays better with other kids than these adults do with each other.  Oversimplifying, I'm sure.  But to me, it makes sense.

This is what Pelosi said: (see http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ioHc80xKMiATnqCpK0cDKJzk_nPQD93GIGRG0 )

In her speech, Pelosi had assailed Bush and his administration for reckless economic policies.

"They claim to be free market advocates when it's really an anything-goes mentality: No regulation, no supervision, no discipline. And if you fail, you will have a golden parachute and the taxpayer will bail you out. Those days are over. The party is over," Pelosi said.

"Democrats believe in a free market," she said. "But in this case, in its unbridled form, as encouraged, supported, by the Republicans — some in the Republican Party, not all — it has created not jobs, not capital. It has created chaos."

She has some balls to overlook her own party's participation.
Yeah, neither side is blameless in this mess.  sad, sad, sad that it has gotten to this point.

There is PLENTY of blame to go around.  However, as most of us here realize, this is NOT the time to play the "blame game."

I think I am going to be ill...
It almost sounds like by voting NO they are saying "You made me mad so I am taking my toys and going home!"  When in all actuality, they have just extended the length of the crisis.  I don't know all the specifics of the bill, but it does seem to me that something needs to be done...My husband and I are small business owners and depend on larger companies paying us for our services.  The thought of them not being able to pay their bills i. e. us....{shiver} I can't even think about it! 

It appears from the myriad of articles I have briefly skimmed (WSJ, FT, Business Week).  It is the intractable role of gov't in our finance system that many Republicans couldn't accept.

Can't say that I disagree given the nature of the gov't to screw most everything up.

I, unfortunately, am one of the many Americans that doesn't understand the whole economic system but it seems to me that the government already has that role...

The private sector seems to be doing a mighty fine job lately.

However most of the comentators are saying that the Republicans are only using that as an excuse and they see nothing in what Pelosi said that should have cause their reaction.

Be that as it may the other comment was even more to the point. Why would those Republicans fail to do what is necessary to save the economy because their feelings were hurt by something someone said?

Here is another take on this subject and from a surprising source:

Monday, September 29th, 2008
The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore

Friends,

Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.

No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:

 

"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.

"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.

"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.

"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."

 

Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.

The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.

And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Falling for whom? NOTHING in this

SeaBee11 , dems could have passed this without one republican supporting it.

So is your point that none of the Republicans should have supported their administrations plan? Your point would make more sense if alll Republicans had supported Bush and it had been the Democrats that defeated the measure.

Why would you expect the Democrats to be the one to do what the Republicans would not? As for my own feeling it is mixed. On one hand I don't think it is wise to continue propping up a broken and rotten by greed system. it should be corrected ONLY if absolute safe guards are put in place and those responsible punished.

Pelosi played partisan politics.  Her judgement and timing could not have been worse, IMO.  When trying to put together a bi-partisan bill, who in their right mind would place blame on the other party?  Pelosi has an inflated sense of her own importance, if you ask me!

I think that most people would agree that Nancy Pelosi is a total failure as Speaker of the House.  Most of the Democratic leadership is, as well.  Of course, the Republican leadership is equally full of FAIL.  I mean ... Seriously!  Nancy was all mean and partisan with the Republicans this morning, so they decided to pout and willfully F*CK the economic viability of each and every person who voted them into office.  

Personally, I think it is time to throw out every single member of the House and start over. 

Term Limits!  Term Limits!  

Make It So!

When did he champion that?  He hasn't made a comment yet today.  I took it that he rushed to Washington to help it pass. 
Oh, and, over the weekend, on NPR's "Wait, Wait" show, Tom Boudet said something to the effect of: "If we don't pass the bailout, all the businesses close and everyone loses their jobs. If we do pass the bailout, taxes get so high that all of your income goes to it and you work for nothing. So, at least if they don't pass it we won't have to go to work." (uncomfortable laugh)

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