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"Sicko" could give Obama the election


By usminc - Posted on 10 September 2008

If there was someway to get the Michael Moore movie "Sicko" on national TV, Obama would win the election. Once people see how were getting screwed here in the USA this whole PTA-mom-Vice President lip stick pig- thing would evaporate and people will remember "It's the economy stupid!", once again. If you haven't seen it, you have to see it. Yes, I know Moore isn't known for his accuracy, but he got it right this time. This is why no one has made a movie refuting "Sicko" as there was with his 9-11 movie. I no fan of Moore either, but I did work in the medical field for 17 years, and I can tell you everything in this movie is spot on.

I would encourage everyone to get a copy of "Sicko" and show it to all the people you know who are undecided (or even decided) and maybe it will change some minds.

If the people who run this site are reading this and you have any pull with the Obama campaign, get them to talk one of the networks into running "Sicko" before the election.  

 

Where going to have an Obama Campaign party and invite our Republican/Democrat friends.  Thanks for the idea to show the movie.

Felicia - Texas

"Who Killed The Electric Car?" would be good too.

Well, I guess you first have to believe in socialized medicine. 

The problem w Moore's movie is that he only gives anecdotal interviews w those who've used the Canadian and French med systems.  For a split second, he mentions that not everyone is happy w this system, but brushes it off by saying that "there will always be ppl who are unhappy with any system".  That's a little disingenuous as he doesn't interview those disgruntled ppl.  

There are actually a LOT of ppl who don't like socialized medicine in both countries.  And if you do a web search you'll find there are forums dedicated to the problems people have, specifically with how long it takes some people to actually get in to see their doctors. 

When the government is allowed to manage systems, they tend to have all sorts of snafus.  Just look at SSI.  Help is often slow coming because of all the hands files have to pass through, etc. 

Also, the US obviously has a larger population than either France or Canada.  That could make such a system a logistical nightmare.  Especialy when you consider all the illegal aliens and their families who would further burden the system.  

 

Cheney/Random Vajayjay  2008

McCain/Palin Deathwatch, September 9 '08:  McCain presently has a (partially complimentary) 45% chance of winning the election.

Sarge, the current healthcare debate in not about socializing the entire system. 

The issue is how to create a system where health insurance is accessible to all.

Changes in how our health care is paid for will not affect the system as it now exist or indeed it may even improve it. physicians, hospitals & clinics are already hamstrung with edicts from the HMOs and Medicare in addition to dealing with the conflict of treating people with no means of payment. These cost are passed on to all of us.

I firmly believe in the principle of the "free market" as an engine for innovation.

So I ask; Where is the innovation regarding heath insurance?

My response is that the only way for insurance to be profitable is to deny payment of claims.

My perspective is that of a consumer, I have been self employed for 25 years and have had to provide for my family 100% out of pocket. The last HMO I was involved with jack our monthly payment to $1,300.00 for a 80/20 policy that had $1,500 deductible. and that was only for 3 family members .

Both my Wife & I have had only one serious heath problem in our adult lives and our college aged son has had no issues. In addition the healthcare maintenance aspect was always a tooth & nail battle for every claim submited.

My conclusion is that a necessity such as heath insurance should be non-profit.

I support Obama's proposals 100%

 

Regards, Michael 

 

I believe in socialized medicine.

The main argument against socialized medicine is the free market will work everything out. Certainly, free market works great in many situations, just not in health care. It is simple microeconomics. Free market works when the consumer of the goods and services can elect not to buy when the price is higher than the willingness to pay. But in health care, the demand is inelastic.

Simply put, will you choose pain and suffering and possible death when the treatment is above your willingness or ability to pay?

I highly doubt it.

You can not put a price on life. People will pay any price to stay alive. As a consequence, medical bankruptcies are becoming far too common. They are not just patients, also hospitals that are providing charity care. This tells me something is broken and must be fixed.

Another point to consider: If you have a sound social safety net in place, people can take more risks financially. It may be investments or entrepreneurship, actions that can really stimulate the economy.

Michael Moore has good intentions but he is far too extreme that some audience close their minds even before the message begins. Instead, I recommend this Frontline episode on the pros and cons of different forms of socialized medicine:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sickaroundtheworld/

There's also the fact that we don't actually have a free market in health care. The government already subsidizes health care for so much of the population that prices are artificially inflated. Insurance subsidizes health care for most of the rest of us, and health care is rendered unaffordable for those without a plan.

I think you are wise to point out that Moore is not exactly a reputable, unbiased source on this matter.

See the movie, then decide.  The insurance companies what you to believe it can't work here.  it isn't government subsudies that have made health insurance unaffordable.

Yes, I did say Moore isn't always fair in his documentaries, but I did also say I have been in the healthcare field 17 years and I know that the situations that befell the people he showed in his movie...the guy that could only afford to save one finger, the woman that lost a baby because the insurance wouldn't pay, people that go bankrupt paying co-pays even when they have insurance, etc., etc., happens every day.

Sarg, as a veteran (me) I'm curious, what do you think of the 'goverment run' healthcare system that is in place for the US Navy, Army, Marines, Air Force, etc.?  It seems to me that this is a socialized system, and works on an extensive population of Americans.  I'm not talking about the VA, I'm referring to active duty military healthcare.  Just curious :)

Yeah, Moore is very one sided with his political documentaries. I would like to see him be more open to both sides.

Farenhit 9/11, great documentary.

Michael Moore is so far "out there" that you would need light years to reach him.

 

wcolin, I reluctantly agree, because I concur with wolfman that Farenhit 9/11 was a great documentary, that contained more facts than people give it credit for.

The problem with Michael Moore is that he is such an easy target for the Rovarian spin machine that employes the strategy of shoot the messenger and kill the message.

Regards, Michael   

There's no reason the USA couldn't have better health care, and there's no reason to think it would have to be exactly like socialized medicine of Europe.

I have been to England and I have seen their health care system first hand. It's actually very good. The only reason we in America think it can't work here is because the Insurance companies want us to think that.  Even Margret Thatcher (pbuh), who was as conservative as Ronald Reagan, thought the British health care system was tops.

Our jobs are getting shipped overseas, the jobs left  are being undermined by illegal aliens, yet the corporations want us to think we have it so good here. People need to wake up from this Palin nonsense and remember it's about the economy.

usminc, I agree with your comments, but would like to add that it is my understanding that England's system is a hybrid of socialized healthcare there are other more efficient systems in place, for example Germany (me thinks) where they have made health insurance non-profit.

my input is based on a recollection of a very good PBS Frontline episode (which aired a while ago) regarding this particular topic. I will try to dig up a link if anyone is interested.

Regards, Michael         

The VA health care system is considered one of the very best in the world and it is very cost efficient. In replacing our current deplorable system we need look no further than it and  adopt that system for all.

All the scare tactics of throwing out the word "socialized" is just the Insurance industries way of trying to keep their golden goose. They absorb about 30% of health care dollars in administration and profits. The VA system uses about 3% to do the job. 

" ... the jobs left  are being undermined by illegal aliens."

And those same illegals would burden our health system, creating long lines of red tape that would make all of us have to wait ridiculously long to get care.  Again, those other countries have a smaller population, and just think of all those added border jumpers we'd have when people hear that free health care would become available. 

 

Cheney/Random Vajayjay  2008

McCain/Palin Deathwatch, September 9 '08:  McCain presently has a (partially complimentary) 45% chance of winning the election.
I think you should vote for mccain.

"I think you should vote for mccain. "

HA HA HA! This is why mom and dad don't let you use the computer.

"And those same illegals would burden our health system, creating long lines of red tape that would make all of us have to wait ridiculously long to get care.  "

Those illegal aliens ALREADY overburden our healthcare! When I go to the health department to get a shot for my daughter, I'm the only English speaking "Merican there.  Everybody else is an illegal alien and they get their bill paid for w/Medicaid.

When my wife had our baby 3 years ago, we had wonderful Aetna insurance (lol!) that left us about $5000 in medical bills. My wife is a LEGAL immigrant from Vietnam, but not yet a full citizen. We were told by the hospital that if she had been an illegal alien Medicare would have paid for the bill 100% because it would have been considered a "medical emergency". 

All I want is for tax paying U.S. Citiizens to get the same treatment that illegal aliens get.

Mitt Romey was on Glenn Beck yesterday and commented how Ireland's economy is growing because they have low taxes. You know what else they have? Free health care. The only thing Republicans care about nowadays is tax cuts for the rich. There are limits to trickle down economics folks.

It isn't just simply "teeny weeny European countries" that have free health care as the Insurance companies tell you via Rush Limbaugh. Russia, India, and China all have it and they're not exactly small. In fact, almost every country in the world has it but us. And the ones that don't have it like Japan offer cheap government insurance that people can get when their employer doesn't offer health insurance.

 

"And those same illegals would burden our health system, creating long lines of red tape that would make all of us have to wait ridiculously long to get care.  "

Those illegal aliens ALREADY overburden our healthcare! When I go to the health department to get a shot for my daughter, I'm the only English speaking "Merican there.  Everybody else is an illegal alien and they get their bill paid for w/Medicaid.

When my wife had our baby 3 years ago, we had wonderful Aetna insurance (lol!) that left us about $5000 in medical bills. My wife is a LEGAL immigrant from Vietnam, but not yet a full citizen. We were told by the hospital that if she had been an illegal alien Medicare would have paid for the bill 100% because it would have been considered a "medical emergency". 

All I want is for tax paying U.S. Citiizens to get the same treatment that illegal aliens get.

Mitt Romey was on Glenn Beck yesterday and commented how Ireland's economy is growing because they have low taxes. You know what else they have? Free health care. The only thing Republicans care about nowadays is tax cuts for the rich. There are limits to trickle down economics folks.

It isn't just simply "teeny weeny European countries" that have free health care as the Insurance companies tell you via Rush Limbaugh. Russia, India, and China all have it and they're not exactly small. In fact, almost every country in the world has it but us. And the ones that don't have it like Japan offer cheap government insurance that people can get when their employer doesn't offer health insurance.

 

I have lots of Canadian friends and they actually like their health care system. NO ONE is denied for any reason. They don't have to worry about the loss of a job taking away their coverage. They don't have to worry about some a-hole in a cubicle deciding if they should have chemo for their cancer. They don't have to worry that their costs will skyrocket. I'm not exactly in favor of the government taking over healthcare. What I do believe is that health care should not be FOR PROFIT. When you are more beholden to the shareholders than you are to the patients, it's simply not right. Did anyone see that woman doctor testify before Congress? Did anyone listen when she told them how she was forced to make life and death decisions based on the bottom line for the insurance company? So, who's okay with their mom, dad, son, daughter, husband, wife, dying because some shareholder needed a bigger return on his investment? WHO??? Lordy, do NOT get me started on this issue!

That's just it, you need to get started on this issue! We all do! The GOP doesn't give a crap about anybody that isn't a millionaire anymore. Thy're letting the financial institutions run themselves into the ground, bail them out with our tax dollars, and then let them do it all over again.

Middle class Americans need to fire the GOP! Vote straight Democrat and send them a message!

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks there is something wrong with helthcare (not to mention everything else) in the country.

Below are just a few true facts about the Canadian health care system.

Canada spends only $3,165 per capita on health care, compared to over $7,000 per capita in the United States.
Source: Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services

The life expectancy in Canada is three years longer than in the United States.
Source: World Health Organization

The infant mortality rate in Canada is 5.0 per thousand, compared with 7.0 per thousand in the United States.
Source: World Health Organization

24 percent of Americans did not seek medical care because of cost, compared to 5 percent in Canada.
Source: 'Inequities In Health Care: A Five-Country Survey,' Health Affairs.

There are nearly 50 million Americans without health insurance, compared with none in Canada.
Source: Centers for Disease Control

The median waiting time in Canada is only three weeks for diagnostic tests and only four weeks for specialist visits and non-emergency surgery.
Source: Statistics Canada

70 to 80 percent of Canadians feel their wait times are acceptable.
Source: Statistics Canada

Sarg, they already get free health care! Where have you been?? Been to an emergency room lately? They don't turn people away for lack of insurance (at least most don't). So who do you think pays for all that treatment now?? WE do, with higher payments and less care. Your argument does not hold water. The insurance companies get their money from somebody, and that is from those of us who are covered. The others are already getting it for free.
I have bought this movie for so many people who are unware of America's social ills.  It shocked the hell out of them, but I was more upset that they hadn't heard of it prior to me.  Anyway I don't think that it would "give" Obama the election, but it may motivate some of those who are confused to get on board. 
Well, maybe not give Obama the election, but if one of the networks would show it, who knows it just might.
I hope so.  It would be great if all would open there eyes to America's plight.  I have seen it first hand and it's sad.

I don't think that we need Michael Moore to tell us that health care in this country is broken. I've heard even from people who support health care reform that this movie is a typical piece of Michael Moore demogoguery.

Then again the only Moore film that I've ever watched is Canadian Bacon. 

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, & wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel

Perhaps you should watch it, before you judge it.  It's not a typcial MM fluff.  There are many issues that I was aware of prior to this film, BUT he even showed me things that I as a healthcare provider was clueless about.

"Then again the only Moore film that I've ever watched is Canadian Bacon. "

Ah, that's why you don't understand. Moore got this one right. Watch the film, then decide. 

"Even a broken watch is right twice a day"

--Old Kilingon Proverb 

 

Well I remember when the film came out and I was trying to find a link to this but I couldn't:

They had this one guy, a firefighter or something, who was involved in the cleanup after 9/11 and who had contracted a lung disease. They took him to Cuba and put him in the film and they were going to give him some money for his treatment.

But then they never did. "They" being Michael Moore and Co.

Of course, since I can't find a link, it just becomes rumor and hearsay which is why I didn't want to post it earlier. 

Now don't get me wrong -- what I've read about how we've treated the folks who got sick after helping out with the 9/11 rescues and cleanup is an absolute disgrace to this country.

And even without watching this film I am well aware of the fact that the US spends more per capita on health care -- private and government funds -- than does any other country and we get less utility from it. I know how much my insurance cost (when I was insured). 

So I don't know what I'm supposed to learn from a film by a man who is almost just as likely to make me knee-jerk in the opposite direction just by virtue of being who he is and how he represents his information.

Maybe I will rent it sometime soon but I doubt it will be before the election anyway. 

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, & wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel

Like, I said...I worked in healthcare 17 years, and I have seen lots of people who suffered like the ones in the film. See the film before you critisize it. I don't think there's anyone who thinks the healthcare system we have here works. Read some of my posts before this one. I dismissed the film too, before I saw it.

The reason the U.S. Spends more is because the unregulated costs are sky high. We pay more and get less in return.  Hopefully you'll never have to file for bankruptcy after you get hit with a $100,000 medical bill after you have a heart attack like so many people in this country have.

We don't have to have socialized medicine, even. We could have cheap government sponsored insurance for those who can't get it through their employers.

Obama wants to at least see all our kids get universal healthcare. That's great news to me, as neither my employer nor my wife's offer health insurance, and our 3 y.o. daughter has none either.

 

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