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New, steaming mad about Pailn, what do family values mean to Republicans?


By Ruth_L - Posted on 03 September 2008

Hi everyone!  I'm glad I'm here.  I'm ostracized in my own LJ comm for Repubs because I am not swallowing the Palin bs.

What part of White Trash does McCain not understand?

Do we want White Trash in the White House? 

What part of Family Values does McCain or Palin represent?

 McCain - I like him but let's face facts.  Cheated on first wife and dumped her for wealthy heir Cindy.

McCain's wife - drug addict, stole from her own charity for drugs.

 Palin - 17 year old pregnant, Troopergate.  National Enquirer & CBS says Palin was having an affair with some guy too.  http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/03/politics/fromtheroad/entry4413030.shtml

 Why couldn't Palin get this girl an abortion, like most parents?  Oh that's right.  She idiotically believes in abstinence education, and yeah that worked well for her daughter AND her!

Obama on the other hand - ONE wife.  His mother was weird, ok, fine, but that's not his fault.  And his preacher was anti Jewish and nuts, ok that's bad too, but Obama and his wife?  They actually represent real family values.  Does McCain or Palin?

 

Touche.  However, I am not sure how Obama's mom could be classified as weird.  Plus many tend to forget that Wright also served his country well, so perhaps his tensions are from what he experienced as a black in the armed forces.

Just for everyone's education, that's Jerimiah Wright behind the IV pole, tending to President Lyndon Johnson, while Wright was serving as a Navy Corpsman in the 60's.

Yeah, that IS a good thing.  But, I still think he's kind of out there, although he's an electrifying speaker.
Well, Wright isn't my style of minister, but it's the culture. He grew up in an era where the government did some really nasty things to its own people, including experimentation, so that has got to mess with you. And, in the inner city, flowery sermons like the suburbs get don't work. He has to "smack these men upside the head" to get their attention.
Oh, I'm not saying that he's my kind of guy at all.  I just think it's important to have the full picture.  I'm sure most people would be shocked (as I was) that the guy was once the epitome of Americanism. 
Well, Obama's mother was pregnant at 17 as well.  But, I think his saving grace is that he was raised by his grandparents. 
If his mom or grandparents ran for President, I will certainly not elect them either.  His own family right now, looks pretty sound to me. His interactions with his daughters were refresshing. If you did not see his campaign visit after the VP speech, you should.

Ruth-

You can't compare Obama's mom being a pregnant teenager to Bristol.  It's like bologna and steak.  Many need to realize that times have changed, and it was accepted then, BUT it isn't now.  During that era the older you got without kids or a husband you were looked down upon. 

Suthngal, you are awesome.  Yes, you are right, but it was a little before my time.

I don't see how it was accepted then and not now. In fact, I would think the opposite was true -- it's far more acceptable now than it was 20, 30, 40 more years ago. 

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, & wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel

Jaygade-

Unfortunately what you think to be factual isn’t.  Take a look into history and you will realize that many women were considered spinsters if not married by the age of 13.  After marriage they were expected to start reproducing quickly.  This lasted for several hundred years.  It didn’t start to change until the late 60’s in some areas and early 70’s in others.  During that time, it didn’t truly matter what age you were, as long as you were married.  Today, as we ALL know, teenage marriages and pregnancies are big no-nos.      

 

We frown upon it NOW, that’s why we have statutory rape laws and age limits set for children to be married w/o permission from a parent or guardian.   

You know, I've heard that stuff but I don't really buy into it. I can see maybe 16 and older. The other side of that coin is that women's bodies are maturing at a younger age now than in the past -- due to a variety of reasons.

But that's neither here nor there -- I thought we were discussing whether it was more acceptable during the time Obama's mother was pregnant versus now. And i would say that it's more acceptable now than in 1964. 

The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, & wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel

I'll admit I wasn't alive during 1964, let alone old enough to know what it was like, but when people I know from that generation have talked about their teenage years, it definetly gave me the idea that it's more acceptable now than then. 

I think I covered that.  I could easily say trust me, because I am a historian with a medical degree, but ah!

Anyway, the point is we are speaking about married teenagers with kids, and yes it was accepted then.  Obama's mother was an no exception.  We need to be clear that unwed mothers no matter what age, carrying a child was unacceptable....then and now.  However, then it was accepted for a teenage wife to have a child.  

Plus truly understanding how reproduction works and knowing that a childs body wasn't physically ready for motherhood was not studied then. 

Well, I am going to go out and BUY a National Enquirer. Something I have NEVER done before! Everyone, do the same - vote with your $$$$. Even if it isn't true I SO want it to be. That woman needs to be exposed for the fraud she is.

 

Kate 

Family values do not include underage pregnancy for me. They mean at least natural family planning, and strong family environment for raising kids.  I have really had it with the "two word" gmmmicking of important programs and issues-- if you know what I mean.

To me, family values do not include using one's kids as political capital. This is really bothering me.

No disrespect Barbara, but no one is using her daughter as political capital, but family values shape who you are.  The best insight on any person is their family!  This woman is relatively unknown and she has to be looked over with a fine toothcomb.  She has opted to do a disservice to her family, and that’s abysmal.  Now, I have opted to be a SAHM, and it doesn’t work for everyone, and as a mom I won’t judge her on that.  However, as a professional I will suggest that she take care of home first.  It’s obvious that she has not allowed much attention to be focused on her family, and if it isn’t obvious to the masses…look at what she’s doing to her 4 month old.  I respect her as a person, but not as a mom who has decided to place her political ambitions over the well being over her family!

I agree there and she's using her family to counter-balance BO kids, betcha dollars to donuts; it can't be family values only since BO apparently has those from viewing his cloesness with his kids and spouse.

The other big kicker to me about the family values argument is practice what you preach. And if what you're preaching doesn't seem to work in a household with seemingly bright people, something should click somewhere about the efficacy of  only teaching abstinence, the denial of sex ed in schools and the lack of contraception availability. If bright people can't prevent it, we can hardly expect the less informed and those who truly may not know better becasue they haven't been taught any other way to encourage no sex. No kids should be having sex, but just cause we wish it away doesn't mean that's going to happen.

One thing I think about during this revelation is that if BO had revealed this we would probably be talking about how hypocritical his lectures about parenting would be and how his liberal agenda would continue to lead to the moral decay of our society. I want to know why the media isn't using this as an opportunity to poke holes in the silliness of asbstinence talk alone. Not only that, but the opportunities that youngsters miss when they are parents. I know I'll take flack for this, but just cause there's a baby a marriage is not made...

^^^^^^^
Golf11, NYC
Vero Possumus

Thanks for this comment.  Sarah wants ppl to JUST overlook the lack of family morals, JUST because.  Sorry it doesn't work that way.  We as a party are some of the most self righteous individuals who are always preaching about morals.  Yet here we have someone running for 2nd in command with a pregnant daughter.  This is the time, where if she was REAL she would be for PPH, sex ed, and funding for housing for teenage moms with no where to live, which she voted against.

 

Again, my thoughts exactly.  How much "family values" stuff have the Republican preached over the years?  Endless.

 Now with this stuff it's the height of hypocrisy for them to say, well it's ok.  No, it's not ok.

 Oh and the latest?  The two of them (Bristol Palin and Levi, the baby daddy) have ring.....tattoos!

 Lovely. 

I like Barack but that guy really has not done anything to justify getting my vote for the most powerfull job in the world. He has run for president almost as long as he has been a senator.

If I worked at a plant (which I do) I would not want a supervisor with only two years of real world experience to all of a sudden say that he is qualified to be plant manager.

Lets face it status quo is not all that bad. And I do not think that McCain is going to be really a status quo type of guy, he has pissed off more republicans and special interests groups than anyone in the history of the republican party.

He has not requested any earmarks where Barack has requested over 3 million worth, but has now rejected the earmark process since he is running against a guy who knows the process is just stealing.

MaCain has honor, he spent 5 years in a box rather than roll over on his fellow prisoners. If you can't trust a guy for taking bamboo shoots up his thumbs and daily beat downs for fear of being used as a propaganda tool then you have other issues.

Give Barack another 10 years get a history and then try again. I would probably vote for him. But for right now the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know.

No, Doug, the devil you know is still the devil.

McCain is incredibly bellicose, and now he's paired up with a woman who believes our military is ordained to carry out the will of God. That's just scary.

McCain proposes 6 trillion in deficit spending. Our currency has already plummeted due to deficit. If you think inflation is bad now, just watch four years of McCain.

McCain reserves his earmarks for big business. It's not as obvious that way, but at least as costly. And his campaign is run by an army of lobbyists.

I will grant you his service to this country, and the sacrifice he made to stay with his fellow soldiers. I don't know how or if that's relevant to the responsibilities of President, but he sure brings it up an awful lot.

"If I worked at a plant (which I do) I would not want a supervisor with only two years of real world experience to all of a sudden say that he is qualified to be plant manager."

This isn't plant management, this is an executive leadership position, like the CEO of a corporation. A plant manager needs to have an innate knowledge of the ins and outs of the specific operations to really be an effective qualified manager because he is daily interacting with all the supervisors of those operations. A CEO does not need any such knowledge, and in fact, the vast majority of CEO's who run corporations who operate such plants, would themselves not be qualified to be managers of those plants because they lack that knowledge.

It would weigh them down with trivialities to study plant management to the point where they could manage a plant and would take years. And for what? Their job isn't plant management, it's to chart the course, rally the troops, and effectively delegate tasks to appropriate and qualified people to handle the more mundane day to day things, in order to achieve the objectives of the organization as a whole.

 In other words, their job is to lead the organization at a whole, not become proficient plant managers. In that, Obama is justified in his comparison of his campaign management experience. He is the CEO of very large organization whose monthly budget is substantially larger than the yearly budget of the town Palin was mayor of. And his organization, so far, has demonstrated it is a well oiled machine being excellently lead, as they have achieved their objectives admirably.

You're kidding yourself if you think some scrub off the street, or even Palin herself with all her touted but completely undemonstrated "executive experience" could operate his organisation, or anything comparable, in anywhere near as effective a manner. The floundering of John McCain's campaign, over and over again, the outing of special interest insiders, etc... Those are all reflections of his poor judgement and poor leadership. Even from a "plant manager" viewpoint, which isn't applicable here.

"He has not requested any earmarks where Barack has requested over 3 million worth"

What?

"In 2006, the senator teamed up with fellow Arizona senator Jon Kyl (R) to funnel $10 million toward the University of Arizona for an academic center named after the late Supreme Court Justice William Rehnquist. Even Arizona lawmaker, Rep. Jeff Flake (R), said he was planning to “lean against the measure.” The National Taxpayers Union, another traditional McCain ally, questioned why the senator was making federal taxpayers foot the bill for the center."

Now you've just had a taste of what taking McCain at his word gets you... proven WRONG. 

I like McCain, except for immigration and abortion.  I'm pro-choice and anti illegal.  I wanted McCain till Palin.

 But Palin is so tainted with corruption scandals and the 17 year old pregnancy thing - - I just don't want her in the VP's chair.  I think she would be a dishonor to the office, and McCain is 72.  Something could happen to him.

 Why he didn't pick Romney is a mystery to me.  He should have.  And until she is gone I'm going to vote for Obama.  If they decide to keep her, then fine, I'm marking Obama.  I don't want Palin near the office of Vice President. 

Caught on Tape: Top GOP Pundits Call Palin "Political Bullsh*t"
Posted by ZP Heller, Talking Points Memo on September 3, 2008 at 4:32 PM.

From HuffPo:

Wall Street Journal columnist and former Reagan speechwriter Peggy Noonan and former John McCain adviser, Time columnist, and MSNBC contributor Mike Murphy were caught on tape disparaging John McCain's selection of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his Vice Presidential running mate.

"It's over," Noonan said.

When Chuck Todd asked her if this was the most qualified woman the Republicans could nominate, Noonan responded, "The most qualified? No. I think they went for this, excuse me, political bullshit about narratives. Every time the Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and that's not what they're good at, they blow it."

Murphy characterized the choices as "cynical" and "gimmicky."

Full transcript:

Chuck Todd: Mike Murphy, lots of free advice, we'll see if Steve Schmidt and the boys were watching. We'll find out on your blackberry. Tonight voters will get their chance to hear from Sarah Palin and she will get the chance to show voters she's the right woman for the job Up next, one man who's already convinced and he'll us why Gov. Jon Huntsman.

(cut away)

Peggy Noonan: Yeah.

Mike Murphy: You know, because I come out of the blue swing state governor world: Engler, Whitman, Tommy Thompson, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush. I mean, these guys -- this is how you win a Texas race, just run it up. And it's not gonna work. And --

PN: It's over.

MM: Still McCain can give a version of the Lieberman speech to do himself some good.

CT: I also think the Palin pick is insulting to Kay Bailey Hutchinson, too.

PN: Saw Kay this morning.

CT: Yeah, she's never looked comfortable about this --

MM: They're all bummed out.

CT: Yeah, I mean is she really the most qualified woman they could have turned to?

PN: The most qualified? No! I think they went for this -- excuse me-- political bullshit about narratives --

CT: Yeah they went to a narrative.

MM: I totally agree.

PN: Every time the Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.

MM: You know what's really the worst thing about it? The greatness of McCain is no cynicism, and this is cynical.

CT: This is cynical, and as you called it, gimmicky.

MM: Yeah.

Isn't that awful? I feel really bad for Peggy. She was just telling the truth, but she didn't know it would be public.

Yes it is, awful, Barbara  If she hasn't already, she'll probably lose her job and be condemned forevermore. 

I really, really don't like the term "White Trash." I've said it before on this board, I consider it up there with the "N" and the "K" word (if you don't know what words I'm referring to - that's a good thing. :)

Palin is small town... that doesn't make her white trash and to infer so is very offensive.

IF you look around this board, I have lambasted my party, the Party of Family Values, (and particularly McCain and Palin) for not putting Bristol's and Baby-to-Be's needs first... and I believe this to be the real issue on this matter. The stress this young pregnant girl is going to be subject to for the rest of her life is shameful, and it could have been prevented if someone would have considered that there were other equally or more qualified famale republican candidates to choose from.

With regard to the abortion comment you made, I think insisting on having an abortion just because it's an embarrassment would be... well, let's just say it would be A LOT of things, and I'm going to refrain from going there because I am personally pro-life but support another's right to choose... I would never pretend to judge another's very personal decision without having walked in their shoes. However, I do respect Palin for at least walking the Pro-Life talk, so I would expect that she not just "dispose of an embarressment" and I commend her for it... I just wish she would have taken family values the obvious one-step-further and protected her daughter and her unborn grandchild from the Presidential Election Political Machine. My heart really goes out to Bristol and her baby and I pray for them. 

I also, wholeheartedly agree with you regarding John McCain's philandering reputation with regard to Family Values. I find it amazing that the Party of Family Values fully embraces a man that makes Bill Clinton look like the Pope! And let us remember that our party crucified Bill Clinton on this issue. I, personally, had issue with Bill Clinton lying under oath... but when it came to the rest of it, I believe it was really inconsequential considering the job he had already done.

Finally, I will say that Barak and Michelle and their daughters are a good example of true family values. THAT is unquestionable...

I agree. I don't find the use of the term white trash necessary to make the point.

Ellen, I respect how you think about being pro-life.  My husband is the same way.  He's Catholic and I'm Jewish.  I tried to have this convo with him last night as we have an unfortunate similar situation on HIS side of the family.  His neice got pregnant and had a baby at 17.  

 Did I freak out then?  Yes!  I feel the same way, it's trashy!  But then again his family accepted it, they're Catholic.  To a Jewish family it would be seen as a HORRIBLE TRASHY THING.

So, he said to me, "Isn't it good that's there's a little baby born now instead of killed?"

I said "No.  It's trashy.  And she's still not married to the guy."  I tried to explain that my cultural values are different than his but he shut down the convo.

 

Thanks Ruth. I appreciate your honesty.

I understand what it's like when discussing politics and religion with a spouse. My husband is agnostic and I'm a Christian (albeit an atypical one because I am tolerant regarding other paths to God.) He doesn't vote either (never has) and, as you can tell, I'm somewhat of the opposite, to say the least. Although he loves to argue and he's quite brilliant at it (he exercises the science behind arguing) he's been known to shut down a few conversations, too. ;)

Now that I fully understand the point that you were making, I look forward to posting with you more. :) To be honest, there's just so much hate in the world that when I see something that might smell of it, I have to do my part to stop it in its tracks. I hope you understand where I was coming from.

Ellen, thank you for your reply.  I really understood what my DH was saying too.  It made me think a lot, and I really understand what he's saying when he says that.

 Oh my husband doesn't vote either.  He's British & we both consider ourselves conservatives.  I'm also a SAHW - no kids yet, but we're trying (can't afford IVF, but oh well!). 

My unsolicited advice:  Don't think about "trying to get pregnant" and just enjoy the ride... (can I say that here?... well I guess I just did...:)  *blush*

I got pregnant for my son when I was 38 and changing my focus did the trick.  My husband would like another child but I'm 43 now and I keep telling him my eggs are comin' down with walkers and it might not be the best idea. ;) 

Oh Ellen, I'm even OLDER than you!  I'm 49 almost 50, and I'm just now trying!  

I didn't get married till 6 years ago.  Just want to be married once, know what I mean?  Like...Obama. 

Had to kiss a lot of frogs and was alone for a long time.

Have you looked at fertilitygal.com?  They track your cycles and tell you when you're most likely to get pregnant.  It's all free, unlike those other sites. 

To be honest, there's just so much hate in the world that when I see something that might smell of it, I have to do my part to stop it in its tracks. I hope you understand where I was coming from.

I certainly understand and so apprecxiate "where you are coming from" and thanks. It is a very important task for us all to stop the ugliness and hateful attacks from those that would continue the policies and practices of the past eight years.

Only war mongers could support Bush's unnecessary war in Iraq and his added blunder his surge. And that is exactly what McCain would do.

See here is another problem I have with Palin.  As a rape survivor, I was blessed to get immediate care with the Morning After pill.  However, under her...if I had become pregnant, she would have expected me to carry this child full term, or the same for a child who is molested.  This in itself makes me thinks she's a loon.  I just wonder with views like this how she would feel if it were her child...raped or molested and carrying pregnant. 

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