I don't get the Evangelical support for Republicans!
What is it I'm missing? Why do Bible believing Christian Conservatives have such a love affair with the current version of the Republican party? Let me make a few points:
1. Republicans, namely RMN, gave us the current Roe vs. Wade debacle. At least it happened on his watch. He had been POTUS since 1968. NO president since has been able to do anything about it. We are up in arms about abortion, but we all know that whether it is legal or not, it will happen, maybe not on the same scale, but it will happen just the same. Love the sinner, not the sin......
2. Christians/Republicans are supposed to be compassionate "do unto others" kind of people. Yet they are the loudest to scream "end welfare and get a job!" Not very bible friendly. Yes, St. Paul said "If you don't work, you won't eat", (my quote, not his), but Christians used to be for social justice, not exactly a Republican theme at the next convention. Just the opposite. The Republicans have Evangelicals fooled into believing that by supporting tax breaks and the war, it will actually help them keep their money, when in reality, it just helps the rich keep their's. Christians should DEMAND that we bring about equality between all, and be willing to GIVE to make our society better, not TAKE another tax break and tell others to "get a job". As wealthy as the Christian/Republican party is, if it weren't for our greed, we could end poverty and inequality.
3. Abortion vs. War. Just war doctrine, as in most Christians don't know what it is. We scream that abortion is an abomination before God, imagine, killing someone who is defenseless, but we sit gleefully while our bombs fall on the "rag heads" and " better kill all the muslims before they kill us, besides, they don't deserve to live anyway, they aren't Christians like we are". And while we are at it, lets go down to Cuba and kick their butts too, though I don't remember why. Oh yea, Iran too, they did something back in '79, it doesn't matter what we did to them, they held some of our folks hostage, so while we are at it, bomb them too...........
4. Maybe Christians are really Nationalists. Put America first, before other human beings. America right or wrong. Support our troops=Support the War. Just try to say something about the war and you are accused of not supporting the troops. Look at what the Republicans did to Cindy Sheehan. Poor lady lost her son for nothing, and she just wanted President Bush to come out and talk with her. He wouldn't even do that. We Christian/Republicans turned her into a left wing crazy whacko that must have lost her mind. I would lose my mind if I lost my son too.........
5. Rwanda, remember that place? We Christians/Republicans stood by while 2.3 million "non-christians" were murdered. Too bad they didn't have a little oil like Georgia does, or at least access to a pipeline to the Black Sea, then we would have defended them! Same with Darfur, no oil, not worth the trouble. At some point we are going to have to realize that being a Republican means more than our own self interests. We live in a Republic, where you don't have to be the majority to be heard. Minority rights exist. America has been a great experiment. in my opinion, that was set up by God to see if His people from every walk of life could come together and put MANKIND ahead of corporate interests, put doing for others on par with doing for yourself. Doesn't look like we will succeed..........
In my opinion, we must put a leader in charge that cares about more than paying back political debts, enriching the Defense industry, or lining his own pockets. Sure, Obama doesnt' have too much experience, and I bet he doesn't owe many people either, so they accuse him of having other reasons for wanting to be POTUS. They say that electing Obama will ruin this country. In reality he wants to destroy America, that he is the Manchurian Candidate, sent by a secret cell of Muslims to bring America to its knees. He will steal all the money from the rich, and enslave everyone to Islam. Thats the best they can come up with, because he hasn't been around long enough to get much more of a story.
John McCain has in excess of $100 million. The only thing left for him is power, pure and simple. Thats what some rich people do, turn from money to power. It isn't a competition to see who dies with the most money. We all die, some sooner than others. It doesn't matter what you possess when you die, but what you did for others. That is the essence of our Christian faith. Do unto others, give and it shall be given unto you, seek ye first..............
Sorry, but I just had to get this Saddleback Church fiasco off my mind. Erase my musings if you want. Some of what I said rings a bell with most of us though.....
I still think this comes
I still think this comes down to single-issue voters, even though that single issue (abortion rights) is actually a red herring.
With the spiraling national defecit, the growing balance of trade deficit, health care, tax policy, the war in Iraq, energy policy, the growing lack of respect for America worldwide, etc, single issue voters have got to be the dumbest people on the planet!
Great post! Christians who
Great post! Christians who truly want to follow the example of Jesus Christ - his compassion for the less fortunate, his beliefs in peace and social justice, etc - SHOULD NOT support the Republican party.
www.matthew25.org
Not to get overly frisky,
Not to get overly frisky, but I don't agree. I don't think God supports one or other party. Or that one party has a monopoly on someone's idea of virtue.
Yeah, I think this present administration is screwy and someone could accuse most of them of being misguided and power hungry. But seems to me that you have Pubs and Dems alike that have allowed the Bush Crime Family to get away with (literally) murder. Polosi has been an accomplice, for example, IMO. Even Obama, with his blessing of FISA.
Where the Dems get a reputation for being more compassionate, the Pubs have a reputation for fighting back, rather than acting like disenfranchised victims and just whining about it. And there are so many exceptions to these reputations w/in both parties.
McCain Deathwatch, August 17 '08: McCain presently has a (partially complimentary) 35% chance of winning the election.
Sarg, I agree that it is an
Sarg, I agree that it is an infection that afflicts both parties. That is why it is so important we focus on the man and the issues, not the party. I know folks say they don't understand why a Republican could vote for Obama, but we have to look past the labels to the man, and McCain doesn't fit my definition of a man of character interested in helping our fellow man.
K
"That is why it is so
"That is why it is so important we focus on the man and the issues, not the party. I know folks say they don't understand why a Republican could vote for Obama, but we have to look past the labels to the man, and McCain doesn't fit my definition of a man of character interested in helping our fellow man."
:::::::::standing up applauding:::::::::
EXCELLENT post RP!! You took the thoughts right out of my head :-)
Why thanks!
This is completely untrue.
But the point is, me, that
But the point is, me, that abortion has been declining steadily since 1990. Neither Republican nor Democratic adminstration/congress has impacted the rate of decline. So it's not necessarily that you're condoning abortion if you vote for a pro-choice presidential candidate. It could just be that you realize that they really can't/don't/won't change anything.
I don't disagree with you,
I don't disagree with you, but I think you missed my point about abortion. It hasn't been in the interest of either party to do away with it, and we have had multiple chances. I didn't say legalize it, it already is legal and the Republicans won't change that. I am more interested in doing something about the things we can do something about, like healthcare, education, and poverty. I know you believe that the "rich are mostly small business owners", but just because most businesses are small businesses doesn't mean they are rich. Most small businesses are not corporations and pay minimal in taxes as they should. I'm talking about tax breaks to large corporations like Exxon/Mobil that rake in BILLIONS in profits each quarter. This is wealth redistribution at its worst!. Where do you think their 11 Billion in profits last quarter came from? You and me, who can probably afford to pay $4/gal for gas, but also from the young mother working to put food on the table for $7/hr. You want to know why she is going to get an abortion next week? She can't afford another mouth to feed, but we are going to give Exxon/Mobil a tax break. If the taxes to them get too high, they will move out, so you say. I say tell them if they move their company, leave the oil! They can't take away our natural resources that belong to all of us, Republican and Democrat. The elite have fooled you into believing that lower taxes means more money in your pocket. They weren't talking about you! They are talking about the big corporations. Disagree? Think about this:
Gas rose to $4/gal. Bush provided a "stimulus" check to every taxpayer. What happened to it? We gave it to the oil companies. All Bush did was speed up the rate at which our money ends up in his (their) oil company coffers. We say "thanks for giving us back some of our taxes". We think it was great, but the higher cost of gasoline absorbed that check so fast, we didn't know it happened. Next thing you know, oil company profits are at record levels. Whats wrong with this picture?
K
K
for years I have listened to
for years I have listened to all the arguments why abortion is wrong. I, too do not condone abortion.However,after the Iraqi war started, there are now at least 1 million innocent iraqis dead. I go to a VA hospital in California once per week for my 100% service connected disability. It sickens me every time I see a truck with a "kill em all let Allah sort em out" or "rags are not hats" bumbersticker. invarially, these trucks also have a christian cross decal in their rear window. Does the "santity of life" doctrine only apply to american unborn babies? How do Christians rectify this to their congregations? Or is it just not mentioned?
Why does the "santity of life
I couldn't agree with your
I couldn't agree with your more Phoenix!! I am a Christian and like you said, I do not condone abortion... but, I've learned that there is so much more to being "pro-life" than just being "anti-abortion."
"I SO voted for Barack Obama! 10/25/08"
Exactly where does the bible
Social Justice is a basic
Social Justice is a basic Christian concept, one of our tenets of faith. When Christ said "when you do it unto the least of these, you have done it to me", he was refering to social justice. In fact, in his discourse in Mathew 25:31 to the end, which to my knowledge is the only place where Christ describes the final judgement in detail, he states that he will separate the sheep from the goats based on how well we performed his commandment to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and visit the sick. This is social justice in the Christian world. Here is a great paper, written in 1998 about the Church and it's responsibility to those less fortunate:
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/philosophy/virtual_library/articles/van_reken_calvin/the_churches_role_in_social_justice.pdf
You can't be a Christian, as I understand Christianity, without taking on your responsibility to society. To say that you aren't responsible is simply ignoring what Christ commanded us to do. It makes you a goat, and He is very specific about what will happen in the end.
K
You have made a point that I
Me, there are numerous
Me, there are numerous examples of things and organizations that the government does much better than the private sector. They provide defense for our nation. They provide laws that require civil rights. They provide education that the religious sector can not provide nearly as well because not every American wants to educate their child in a religious school, just look at a Madras school in a Muslim country and you will know why. Taking care of "all these people" is the business of the government when we have citizens that won't. Not every disadvantaged citizen wants to sit through the Salvation Army's preaching to receive a meal. Not every disadvantaged citizen wants to sit through mass to get breakfast. They shouldn't have to.
I commend you for taking care of your brother in need. Many do the same. Not every citizen has a brother or sister to take care of them, what do we do? I guess we could force them to go to a faith based organization to get their help?I have seen how many faith based organizations spend their money. Many are being asked to testify and show their records before Congress right now. I remember Jim and Tammy, Jimmy Swagart and others who betrayed the faith that was placed in them when it came to handling money. The simple truth is that in America, being from one of the religious or faith based organizations is not a requirement to receive aid. Thank God I don't have to declare my religion before I apply for aid. We don't live in a Theocracy, but a Republic.
There are many things taken over by the government that is done far better now. Think Air Traffic Control, think education, think disaster relief, (don't include Bush's debacle in New Orleans), think law enforcement. All those things were done in the private sector originally. Much better now.
We have freedom of religion, its just that some people don't like the religion some people pick. I rather enjoy a country where your religion isn't pushed down my throat. I can't force others to go to my church in order to get assistance. Good. As it should be.
K
Kids educated in private
KatMarie, I did not say or
KatMarie, I did not say or imply that Christians should not support the GOP. That is a matter of individual choice. What I said was that Christians should not support GOP candidates simply because they are generally pro-life, without seeking to discover what other beliefs or policies they may have in common with Christians. I just think the abortion debate ranks about tenth in importance in the litany of issues Christians (I am Catholic by the way) should consider when selecting any candidate or party.
wcolin - I think you have
It is liberal groups like
Nugen, I think you will find
i was just waiting for you
AMEN and AMEN. The true
I posted this on another
I posted this on another thread but thought I'd add my two cents here, as well. I'll just add that I totally agree with your point about being compassionate to others. No matter what our faith and background, I think we'd all agree we should take care of "even the least of our brother and sisters" as Obama spoke of.
Without touching the
Without touching the abortion issue, war is not just about soldiers shooting at each other, which is bad enough, but sometimes necessary. War always means the loss of civilian lives, including tiny infants, children and their mothers, and pregnant women. Many thousands that survive are maimed, or left to try to survive in the rubble. War is ugly....and should never be entered into without deep soul searching and strong reasons for it's necessity. Obama seems inclined to give the idea of war that special type of consideration. McCain likes to rattle his saber, posture and bully. To me, Obama's way is the way God would want us to handle it.
I agree that God doesn't
I agree that God doesn't have a political party. He expects much from those who have been given much. It isn't as simple as many would like to believe. When Obama said that knowing when life began was "above his paygrade", I couldn't have agreed more. What an honest and humble answer. We have very learned people that disagree, and only God knows when life truly begins. Obama at least admitted he didn't know for sure. McCain on the other hand, immediately stated it was conception, as if he was so much smarter than everyone else. He knew what crowd he was talking to, and he knew what answer they wanted to hear. It was truly an inappropriate question. Why not ask them something that pertains to issues of the day. Once either man is elected, I doubt they will spend another minute thinking about when life begins, and I doubt it will enter into any policy choices they make.
I completely agree with Izzy and Suzi, there is more to war than "winning with honor". I could respect McCain if he said he wanted to stay the course in Iraq and repair what we broke, and help rebuild the lives we destroyed by mistake. That would be a worthy cause, and a good reason to stay. If he said that we support Georgia and wanted to help mediate the problem, I could respect that. He has no credibility in this issue with his support for Israel. They did EXACTLY the same thing to the Palestinians in 1973, took their land, defied the U.N. resolutions, and are still there today, and we say they have a right to be there. Russia is just doing what Israel did 35 years ago. But the christian crowd backs Israel regardless. We need to all become more compassionate and willing to discuss issues rather than drop bombs. I think that is part of the evolution of the human mind. Oh, and by the way, that is a very "Christian" idea, talk, not fight.
K
Obama saying that he did not
Obama saying that he did not know when life began because it was above his pay grade was not humble. It was just another point in this process where Obama did not take a stance. People want to make this about being compassionate. Is it more compassionate to give someone a fee check or is it more compassionate to give them a job and some dignity.
Is it better to make $8 an hour and pay no taxes in the end on it and pay your own way; or is it better to give them a free chck and let them bestow those values on another generation of children.
What did the Israelites in the Old Testament do? they wiped out everyone in their path and take over their God given land. Fighting is a part of life. Unfortunately it is. There is absolutely no parralel in wht Israel did and what Russia is doing. Russia is not 7 miles wide at some points with every country around it wanting all the people in Israel to drown in the Dead Sea. As far as the Palestinians go: are they not Arabs, and did they not have a home in Lenbanon and Jordan.? They are where they are now; because the Arab countries threw them out and want to continue to use them as a pawn against Israel. The Palestinians do not have a homeland because of the policies of the Arab countries surrounding Israel. It is not because of anything Israel has done. Israel continually agreed to more and more with Arafat; at the behest of Jimmy Carter. every time they thought there was a setllement, Arafat pulled the plug and asked for more.
If it is going to be about the Bible; and you want to say pro lifers should not be for the death penalty then you should read the Bible a little more closely. The Bible says protect the innicent. As far as the criminals go; the Bible says an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The argument made about no death penalty should not hold water with evangelicals. The Bible is very explicit.
One more thing god rejects no one and sends no one to Hell. People reject God by their choices and therefore send themselves to Hell. God offers free forgiveness with true repenting and a change in the way we live our life.
I think your version of
I think your version of history is somewhat distorted. Lets make some parallels:
Israel was created out of Palestine. No one disagrees with that. Israel started the 6 days war and took a "preemptive" stance. They took the Golan and Sinai. The Yom Kippur war was Egypt and Syria's attempt to get it back. The U.N. said that Israel had taken it illegally and there are numerous resolutions saying they should leave. Israel does what it pleases, with my tax dollars.
Yes, the Palestinians were Hashemites, just like in Jordan, but they are not from that area of Jordan, they are from Palestine. Thats like saying if the Mexicans took Texas back, the Texans should just move to Louisiana, because they are all Americans! No, Israel should go back to the pre-war borders.
Yes the bible says an eye for an eye. That was in the old testament. Do you still uphold everything in the Old Testament? If you do, then you have much more explaining to do. I suspect you only pick and choose the parts that support your argument.
As for your belief that God sends no one to hell, I couldn't disagree with you more. God certainly does send people to hell. Read Mt 25:31 thru to the end of the chapter, then tell me God sends no one to hell. I do agree he offers those that are repentent forgiveness, but you hit the nail on the head, we have to "change how we live our lives".
K
RP, I think we can sum it
Exactly Suzi, that
Exactly Suzi,
that commandment means what it is to be a Christian.
Thanks
K
The bible says love one
Is that verse in the bible?
Is that verse in the bible? That is an old Puritan saying, not a Christian Bible verse. Jesus didn't qualify anything with, "Give, to those that have jobs, and it will be given to you", or "When you do this to the least of my employed people, you have done it unto me". Get a grip.
K
If you want to quote the
I only have one response to
Who actually started it
Who actually started it could be a matter of a technicality. It just all depends on how one sees things.
<From Wiki:
In May 1967, Egypt expelled the United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) from the Sinai Peninsula, which had been stationed there since 1957 (following the 1956 Suez Crisis) to provide a peace-keeping buffer zone. Egypt also amassed 1,000 tanks and 100,000 soldiers on the border, closed the Straits of Tiran to all ships flying Israeli flags or carrying strategic materials, and called for unified Arab action against Israel.[5]On June 5, 1967, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack[6] against Egypt's airforce. Jordan, which had signed a mutual defence treaty with Egypt on May 30, then attacked western Jerusalem and Netanya.[7][8][9] At the war's end, Israel had gained control of the Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights. The results of the war affect the geopolitics of the region to this day.>
THE END, please. This is a political discussion board, not a theological one.
This is part of politics.
You misunderstand, me. I'm
You misunderstand, me. I'm merely pointing out that either viewpoint could be substantiated. It all depends on your position. The mid-east is very complex, and beyond my full understanding.
I didn't post this to debate you, or to respond to any of your opinions. I was pointing out facts.
Thank you.
Look it up, me, the Yom
Look it up, me, the Yom Kippur war was started by Egypt and Syria, the war in 1973 was a different story.
So now you are saying it is ok for Russia to occupy Georgia? Georgia started it, and Russia is just taking ground so it doesn't happen again? Please pick an argument and be consistent!
K
"The Democrats as a whole
"The Democrats as a whole have never supported Israel..."
This is the most asinine statement I have ever heard. Both republicans and Democrats have always supported Israel. That's a fact, not speculation.
wc, methinks me is a troll,
I am truly just trying to
I agree me - it should be a
I agree me - it should be a community issue first and foremost as they are better equipped and more efficient in handling problems. After these efforts are exhausted should the gov't step in.
In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to another - Voltaire
Great ambition, the desire of real superiority, of leading and directing, seems to be altogether peculiar to man, and speech is the great instrument of ambition. Adam Smith
(Old thread, I know, but I
Wrong. You think Obama is "certainly not" the right choice, because you are indoctrinated to believe that. Only an ideologue or someone intellectually blind believes in absolutes. Don't you think it's at all odd that sermon after sermon, your preacher rails against the Democrats as if they're demon-possessed, or leprous? Doesn't that at all remind you of the Sanhedrin in the time of Jesus?
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Sticker/sign tally in Orange County, CA:
It's new testament vs old
I agree right thing, there
UGH!! What ever happened to
yeah, we talked about that
yeah, we talked about that earlier, I think, kwilsrn. Here're my thoughts:
1. It seems really odd to have a "faith and politics" forum to begin with.
2. Even odder when you consider that by "faith" they really mean exclusively "conservative Christianity." (They could have just as easily had a panel of ministers from across the religious spectrum asking these "moral" questions.)
3. But since they decided to do it, we might as well take advantage of the chance to get another look at the candidates. Many of the questions were not ostensibly about religion or faith, but about the candidates motives behind various issues, etc.
4. Many of us feel the same way about the religious right's monopolization of the party.
One thing that "one issue"
One thing that "one issue" voters need to wake up to is to look at the history of both parties. Neither one wants to end abortion, the Democrats are just honest about it. Sure, there are individuals in the party that do, but the national party needs to hold the anti-abortion crowd hostage, so they use fear mongering. To try to scare us into never leaving the fold. We had a Republican in the White House and Republican control of both houses, and no action was taken, not even a carefully crafted law to challenge the Court. Think about it. If they succeed in what you want, they are no longer needed as a firewall.
All I can say is that I am a
All I can say is that I am a Christian and a republican. I AM NOT OPPOSED to gay marriage or abortion. I think it's easy for someone to say that they don't condone something UNTIL they have to walk a mile down that path. Then I can promise you that you will be singing a different tune.
BTW-My dad is an Atheist and he's a republican. Go figure!
I'm so glad to know there
I'm so glad to know there are Republicans out there who are thinking, compassionate people and not all zombies for the Conservative political jesus and lemmings for McCain, since he won the GOP nomination, we HAVE TO support him ...
Glad to see there are thinking people out there.
I agree with much of what
I agree with much of what you said. A real Christian party should be SOCIALLY conservative and fisacally LIBERAL. That's the way Jesus was. I am opposed to abortion demand and same sex marriage (and my best friend is gay), but the GOP isn't.
The GOP just makes a bunch hot air. There is only one thing they really satnd for and it is: Tax cuts for the rich.
It's a race between two liberal senators, no matter how you slice it. I decided in this election the only difference is Obama might give the little guy a break. Since I don't make $5 million a year, I'm voting for him.